No Child Left Behind is actually working

Students who are in grades 1-6 don't have to really worry about critical thinking skills because they don't really have an outlet to express them. About the only type of critical thinking skills I see my oldest son use are the ones that help him think about ways of getting out of his chores and back onto the video games. While it is entertaining, it still doesn't do him one ounce of good in school.

Sure he learns about science but that is really the only critical thinking he has to do. The rest of his classes are the basics and don't require critical thinking skills.

I will tell this story for as long as I can remember it.

I went back to college a few years ago and ended up retaking a basic math class. It had been 10 years easy since I had done any real math so when I took my placement test, it said basic math. This was the easier stuff but once again it had been a while. I walked into that class the first day and there were more high school age students in that class then there were older people such as myself. It was a sad state of affairs. I started to look at it this way. If these guys can't do the basics then how in the world are they ever going to get a decent paying job? The future wasn't look very bright. Needless to say out of a class of about 20 people about 9 of them were fresh out of high school and by the end of the class 4 of them had dropped out of the class because it was too hard.

To hard? We started doing 4.2 +4.2 type math and ended with the very basics of pre-algebra. How can you get out of school and not know how to do simple math?

Some of you want students to have critical thinking skills and to "question authority" and that is fine and good, but critical thinking skills will get you no where unless you can read and write and understand what is being asked of you.

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Baldimo wrote:

Students who are in grades 1-6 don't have to really worry about critical thinking skills because they don't really have an outlet to express them. About the only type of critical thinking skills I see my oldest son use are the ones that help him think about ways of getting out of his chores and back onto the video games.

Schools are not responsible for how you parent.

Baldimo wrote:

I went back to college a few years ago and ended up retaking a basic math class. ... I walked into that class the first day and there were more high school age students in that class then there were older people such as myself.

Gee, Baldimo, what percentage of the total student population are older students? And who could be expected to be taking entry-level math? Perhaps... freshmen?

Clearly, our schools were not teaching critical thinking skills even before NCLB.

I mean, really.

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Baldimo wrote:

Some of you want students to have critical thinking skills and to "question authority" and that is fine and good, but critical thinking skills will get you no where unless you can read and write and understand what is being asked of you.

Why can't both be done?

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McGentrix wrote:

I've never known the teacher that thinks their students are the ones that need programs like NSLB. They all believe they are the best teachers in the world and that it is the system that is failing their children. Programs like NCLB is unnecessary because "A mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled"...

Yet we have so many kids across the nation who are not even learning the basics of how to read and write. Simple math is beyond them, yet no teacher can be faulted as they have a philosophy of "not my students".

Osso wants logic and reason and other super things taught in school. I just want them all to be able to read and do simple math. How about we reach my goals first, then shoot for the stars.

I don't think anyone has a problem with using standardized testing to identify under-performing schools.

I don't think that standardized tests are a good way to identify bad teachers. Certainly the statistical methods I've heard discussed are hugely flawed.

My problem with NCLB is that it tries to make every kid average. Obviously, some kids perform above average and some kids perform below average. Some factors that affect performance can be controlled, and some factors cannot. Especially, there are a lot of factors that cannot be controlled by the educators.

Let what works alone, and fix what's broken, but don't expect every kid to be "average."

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DrewDad:

Quote:

Schools are not responsible for how you parent.

That wasn't the point slick. The point is that what type of critical thinking skills do 4th graders need. I was giving an example of how they use their skills.

Quote:

Gee, Baldimo, what percentage of the total student population are older students? And who could be expected to be taking entry-level math? Perhaps... freshmen?

At the community college? Not sure to be honest with you but it wasn't a 50/50 split I can tell you that.

You think its ok for Freshman who just graduated from high school as seniors to be taking entry level math? Shouldn't they have had those skills already since they graduated from high school? I'm not talking about people in their 30's or 40's, we are talking about 18 and 19 year olds. 4.2+4.2 they should already know. People such as myself used the class as a refresher.

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At least, they offer at your universities such courses.

Here, if you study mathematics, computer sciences, information sciences etc you have to undergo a test before .... and than look, how you get your knowledge updated.

When I studied social work more than 20 years ago, 36 years old, I really had difficulties to remember all what I'd learnt at school for statistic classes in psycholgy (and social sciences).
But they offered no refreshment/basic courses at all: it was expected that you knew such from school.

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Baldimo wrote:

DrewDad:

Quote:
Schools are not responsible for how you parent.

That wasn't the point slick. The point is that what type of critical thinking skills do 4th graders need. I was giving an example of how they use their skills.

They need to learn the basics, just like they need to learn the basics of math and writing. You don't expect a 4th grader to write an essay on Shakespeare, but they ought to be learning to ask questions about the world.

Baldimo wrote:

Quote:
Gee, Baldimo, what percentage of the total student population are older students? And who could be expected to be taking entry-level math? Perhaps... freshmen?

At the community college? Not sure to be honest with you but it wasn't a 50/50 split I can tell you that.

You think its ok for Freshman who just graduated from high school as seniors to be taking entry level math? Shouldn't they have had those skills already since they graduated from high school? I'm not talking about people in their 30's or 40's, we are talking about 18 and 19 year olds. 4.2+4.2 they should already know. People such as myself used the class as a refresher.

Personally, I'd hope that all of our citizens, old or young, would be able to perform that kind of math.

On the other hand, I'd think the college can decide if the course is appropriate or not.

Personally, I see the public school system as offering an opportunity to learn. Those that want to learn should be allowed to do so. "No Child Left Behind" can be interpreted as "No Child Gets Ahead," too.

Sadly, I think too many parents are failing their children by not getting them excited about learning.

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Baldimo, I was horrified to hear you say that elementary kids don't need or use critical thinking skills. First of all, the more often they learn to use these skills, the better they get at it - so, the sooner the better. I work in an elementary school and have heard students use their critical thinking ability to explain and hypothesis plenty. So, they can use it. And, in real life, they are walking around in a world that doesn't always make sense, these skills help them make sense of it.

And, moreover, kids LIKE having critical thinking skills. It makes them feel more in charge of what they're learning if they are figuring things out on their own.

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My kindergartener uses critical thinking skills. A lot. <mutter> (Can you tell I'm trying to stay away from this topic, and failing? I'll try harder.)

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What is it excatly you guys believe is happening in the classroom? A teacher in front of the class with copies of old standardized tests in hand and on an overhead projector explaining how to answer question #1?

Please. Maybe spend some time in a classroom and see what's happening. See how little parents are actually involved in theirs children's education. See how they don't get their homework done, see how they don't pay attention to the educational material, watch as the clowns do their best to disrupt the class, see how young hormones effect peer interactions. Watch how TV, video games, cell phones, ipods, gameboys, lack of sleep, etc effect each student.

Teach critical thinking? How exactly do you do that when you have a hard enough time teaching the basic educational needs?

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McG, as stated many of us do have classroom experience.

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littlek wrote:

McG, as stated many of us do have classroom experience.

Then speak up and defend yourself.

Why aren't you teaching critical thinking skills?

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I have in the pages before this one.

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The alternative to "rote learning" is synthesis. In synthesis, instead of regurgitating facts and procedures, the student takes what she knows and then applies them to new situations... or to understand new ideas.

Students practice synthesis in one of two ways.

They can be presented with a new, unfamiliar problem that interests them. Then they can either use knowledge they have, or they can search for new understanding... until they have a proper solution to the problem that they developed. They can also determine that the solution is correct by checking it with predetermined criteria. This, by the way, is how things are done in the real working world.

Students also can practice synthesis by being allowed to explore. There is a womderful creative process that happens when someone follows knowledge that interests them. Students can be given guidelines... but then can be allowed to explore an area creating new ideas along the way. These ideas can be evaluated through discussion (both with peers and with the teacher) and through application (i.e. it can be built or implemented or presented). This, by the way, is how things are done in the real world.

Synthesis is what happens in the working world. If I want to learn something... I either start on a project, or I pick up a book on something that interests me and start exploring until I have created something. I have had a successful professional life because I do these things.

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Again, I'm not an educator, but it seems to me that the one thing that has been proven to work is smaller schools/smaller classrooms. Why can't we take all this money that is being spent on testing and build more schools so that we can have smaller class sizes?

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So, you are suggesting a curriculum based on sex, video games and food?

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i want to transfer chester into Latin

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McGentrix,

My son in middle school has a MCAS (the exams in Massachussets) preparation class. There was a similar program in the high school where I taught.

When I was a teacher, we had "workshops" where we talked about what was going to be on the MCAS and how we could raise scores.

I can tell you from experience that these things are happening in schools. And why not? The NCLB bill makes the tests critically important with harsh penalties on school districts. There is no question that instead of focussing on what they think will gives the best education, schools are going to focus on what they think will get kids to pass the test.

This is not a good thing.

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ebrown_p wrote:

McGentrix,

My son in middle school has a MCAS (the exams in Massachussets) preparation class. There was a similar program in the high school where I taught.

When I was a teacher, we had "workshops" where we talked about what was going to be on the MCAS and how we could raise scores.

I can tell you from experience that these things are happening in schools. And why not? The NCLB bill makes the tests critically important with harsh penalties on school districts. There is no question that instead of focussing on what they think will gives the best education, schools are going to focus on what they think will get kids to pass the test.

This is not a good thing.

What was the content of the tests brown? Was it something you should have been teaching, or was it some obscure, unknown thing that no child would ever know without being taught exactly was on the test?

No Child Left Behind is actually working

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