Confidence in your beliefs.

Kate - I don't nessisarily agree with the idea that I "walked away from Christ."

My description of wat hppened more follows this description.

I'm in a house, and it's a party! Jesus is there, and he is host. He's very kind; a good host. He' entertaining everyone, telling jokes, doing tricks. I'm really enjoying myself.

Then all of a sudden someone yells "Cut!" And when that happen's I realize that I'm not in a house, I'm an extra on a set of a TV show. All the other people keep partying, but Jesus walks off set and lights up a cigarette. I follow behind and ask "Jesus, what are you doing?" he says, "Christ sake kid, my name is Joe, let me have my moment of peace and enjoy my smoke."

I walk around set and then I'm hurdled back on stage. The Directer says "Action!" and then the party resumes. Everyone is having a great times. Jesus is doing card tricks, the sha-bang etc. I'm the only extra who seems to notice that we're on a set. For a while I try to just fit back in and pretend, but Jesus... Joe's breath smells like a camel-red and i've become all too aware of the boom mic above his head.

I eventually have had enough and I just walk off set.

immediatly as I walk off set, the other extras start getting mad at me. It is only when I walk off set that they become partially aware of the set itself. "This is your salvation! Your one chance to be saved!" becomes "This is my foot in the door asshole! My big break into the movie industry." but they don't dare step off the stage. Some become uncomforable that I left, so they try to focus on Joe, others don't even notice I'm gone. Either way, the stage is where they want to be.

All the while as this happens, the cameras keep rolling, they just tkae tight close ups of Jesus-Joe while I walk off. However, later the directer selects shots that do not include me. Nothing a little stock footage can't sew up.

so in the end, I don't feel as if I walked away from Jesus. I feel I walked away from Joe. All motion is relavant, I think staying where I was religiously was moving me further and further away for the truth.

I've been searching ever since.

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Tko thanks for sharing.

What made you believe, for yourself, that Jesus wasn't who the bible and christians said he was?

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Two senarios exist in my mind with the entire Jesus thing. I'm not that dismissive of anything, I just guide myself by reason.

In one senario in my mind, jesus was just a man; more the Jesus Christ superstar approach. He did some radical things, and alarmed a lot of people.

In the other scenario, Jesus was some greater being.

However, I don't believe the bible in either scenario. Further, I tihnk that Jesus's effect is just as profound as other historical figues such as Buddha. I don't dismiss the notion that Jesus was something great, it's just that the two scenarios conflict with each other, and the only evidence for Jesus as a god is the bible, and I feel it's been comprimised over the centuries to fit an agenda.

I personally feel that the story of Jesus as a just a man would be more profound. It could ultimately be more encouraging and more enabling if he was mortal.

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Agreed. It seems massively more profound to me to. Why is the resurrection so important as well? The importance is in the action, as soon as he did good, he gave people a possiblity, an alternative, a choice. As soon as anyone around us does good, is brave, kind, loving, it's all capable of being profound to me. There's a genuine sense of responsibility here I think.

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kate4christ03 wrote:

echi we aren't going to see eye to eye on this. I truly believe you didn't have an actual personal relationship with God, bc if you did you wouldn't now believe he is non-existant.

In other words, you believe what you want to believe despite evidence to the contrary. Why am I not surprised?

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You could try using your brain. It will hurt, at first, but the more you practice the easier it will get.

there you go again. it's like you can't help it. and the irony is that the more you insult my intelligence, because i have used scripture in debate, the more ridiculous you appear.

Whatever, kate... The debate is not focused on what the Bible does or doesn't say, but what you believe and why. What's ridiculous is that you can't seem to understand that.

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Anyone who is interested in seeing what i've posted these last few weeks, can take note that i have used scripture when it was being debated. I haven't gone around typing scripture for no apparent reason. Instead of taking full responsibility for your first insult, you laid the blame on myself and other christians.

What the hell are you talking about?

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Then, when i called you on that ridiculous accusation, you have kept going, regardless of how silly you look.

What the hell are you talking about?

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You are pretty much telling me in this "SPIRITUALITY and RELIGION" forum, within the context of a scriptural debate, or when asked a question pertaining to ones religious beliefs, a person can't use scripture to debate with atheists or anyone else . . .

"pretty much". . . Okay, kate. What sense do you think it makes to use scripture to make a point in a conversation with someone who doesn't accept your irrational beliefs? IMO, your interpretation of the Bible is just foolish.

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Quote:

In other words, you believe what you want to believe despite evidence to the contrary. Why am I not surprised?

i see no evidence that you had an actual personal relationship with Christ. Because logically if you did, you wouldn't be an atheist now.

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Whatever, kate... The debate is not focused on what the Bible does or doesn't say, but what you believe and why. What's ridiculous is that you can't seem to understand that.

I'm a christian. what i believe on religion is based on scripture and experience. Both of which i've used in the course of this topic. So why are you saying that by quoting scripture (for my beliefs on christianity) i have no intelligence). You make no sense.
my previous post

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Anyone who is interested in seeing what i've posted these last few weeks, can take note that i have used scripture when it was being debated. I haven't gone around typing scripture for no apparent reason. Instead of taking full responsibility for your first insult, you laid the blame on myself and other christians.Then, when i called you on that ridiculous accusation, you have kept going, regardless of how silly you look.

Im referring to your first post in which you insinuated that i'm a moron. And when others called you on it, you apologized but cited that you were frustrated with christians using this forum not as a debate but support group. I can only concur you were lumping me in that silly category since that statement was made after you jumped into a debate and instead of debating, just slung insults. What i just posted (my previous post) is a response to that. You made an insult, then an unfounded accusation about me. Debate the topics at hand, don't throw in insults. It's childish.

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Okay, kate. What sense do you think it makes to use scripture to make a point in a conversation with someone who doesn't accept your irrational beliefs?

It's really sensible when i use scripture, to answer questions posed about scriptural teachings in *gasp* a religious discussion.

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kate4christ03 wrote:

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In other words, you believe what you want to believe despite evidence to the contrary. Why am I not surprised?

i see no evidence that you had an actual personal relationship with Christ. Because logically if you did, you wouldn't be an atheist now.

kate, did you ever believe in Santa?

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Whatever, kate... The debate is not focused on what the Bible does or doesn't say, but what you believe and why. What's ridiculous is that you can't seem to understand that.

I'm a christian. what i believe on religion is based on scripture and experience. Both of which i've used in the course of this topic. So why are you saying that by quoting scripture (for my beliefs on christianity) i have no intelligence). You make no sense.

The question is not what you believe but why you believe it. You cannot rely on scripture for that one.

kate4christ03 wrote:

Debate the topics at hand, don't throw in insults. It's childish.

Okay.

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kate, did you ever believe in Santa?

sure and when my mom told me the truth, i got in my car and drove around for a while... Laughing

sorry corny joke.

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The question is not what you believe but why you believe it. You cannot rely on scripture for that one.

Echi this discussion actually was on what we believe in a spiritual sense. I answered (without using scripture) then was asked another question. I only used scripture then because in any worthy debate, a person will have something to support their belief. Regardless of how you view the bible, i believe it to be true and will use it to support my views pertaining to religious convictions. But, I don't just sling out scripture for any given topic, nor do i use this forum as a support group. I use this forum for debates only.

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kate4christ03 wrote:

Quote:
kate, did you ever believe in Santa?

sure and when my mom told me the truth, i got in my car and drove around for a while... sorry corny joke.

That's funny, kate... so, did you or didn't you?

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kate4christ03 wrote:

Echi this discussion actually was on what we believe in a spiritual sense. I answered (without using scripture) [. . .]

Maybe I missed that part; would you mind pointing it out to me?

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Diest TKO wrote:

Kate - I don't nessisarily agree with the idea that I "walked away from Christ."

My description of wat hppened more follows this description.

I'm in a house, and it's a party! Jesus is there, and he is host. He's very kind; a good host. He' entertaining everyone, telling jokes, doing tricks. I'm really enjoying myself.

Then all of a sudden someone yells "Cut!" And when that happen's I realize that I'm not in a house, I'm an extra on a set of a TV show. All the other people keep partying, but Jesus walks off set and lights up a cigarette. I follow behind and ask "Jesus, what are you doing?" he says, "Christ sake kid, my name is Joe, let me have my moment of peace and enjoy my smoke."

I walk around set and then I'm hurdled back on stage. The Directer says "Action!" and then the party resumes. Everyone is having a great times. Jesus is doing card tricks, the sha-bang etc. I'm the only extra who seems to notice that we're on a set. For a while I try to just fit back in and pretend, but Jesus... Joe's breath smells like a camel-red and i've become all too aware of the boom mic above his head.

I eventually have had enough and I just walk off set.

immediatly as I walk off set, the other extras start getting mad at me. It is only when I walk off set that they become partially aware of the set itself. "This is your salvation! Your one chance to be saved!" becomes "This is my foot in the door ****! My big break into the movie industry." but they don't dare step off the stage. Some become uncomforable that I left, so they try to focus on Joe, others don't even notice I'm gone. Either way, the stage is where they want to be.

All the while as this happens, the cameras keep rolling, they just tkae tight close ups of Jesus-Joe while I walk off. However, later the directer selects shots that do not include me. Nothing a little stock footage can't sew up.

so in the end, I don't feel as if I walked away from Jesus. I feel I walked away from Joe. All motion is relavant, I think staying where I was religiously was moving me further and further away for the truth.

I've been searching ever since.

One of the best posts I've ever seen on A2K. Thanks Diest.

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Echi the initial topic was on what we believed ....I answered then ghost asked me how and why i have faith in what i belief... this was my response

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Part of my faith comes from my parents. I was raised in a strong christian family. The other part, from God. He called me when i was a kid and i made Christ my Savior and have been a born again christian now for 17 yrs.

i was telling him where my faith came from. Partly from my parents' teachings and the rest(mainly) from God. I could have gone into more detail, but didn't see the necessity. My answered must have satisfied his curiousity, because he hasn't posed another.
Then only after i was asked a question by eorl, did i use scripture. And like i said, as a christian, when asked to give my religious beliefs, i won't just give my personal opinion, i will cite scripture. Even if others believe that the bible is false.

and as for your question on santa, yes i believed in him as a child. But i really don't see the correlation between santa and God. That's like comparing apples and oranges. We can trace back to the time when the mythical claus was created but God has always been spoken of( by just about every faction of people since the beginning of time) in some way. And santa is only believed by children not educated adults. Yet there are so many intelligent men and women who have a personal relationship with God through Christ. My only point in my comment i made to you is that ( and please note i wasn't inferring you are a liar on your experience) I have a personal relationship with God. Nothing can change that, and if you had experienced what i have, you wouldn't be an atheist. But faith is hard to debate. And evidence of God is a hard thing to prove without one having faith.

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Tko i think where we will not see eye to eye is on faith. For you, its hard to see Christ as being all he was portrayed as in the bible; God, Savior, Messiah, etc. For me, its easy.

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kate4christ03 wrote:

Tko i think where we will not see eye to eye is on faith. For you, its hard to see Christ as being all he was portrayed as in the bible; God, Savior, Messiah, etc. For me, its easy.

Why is it easy for you?

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ash i think i may have responded on the importance of the resurrection to you in another post, but i am not sure. If so, then sorry for basicly posting the same thing.

The resurrection is essential to christian doctorine. Christ had to die, according to biblical teachings, to save us. But, without the resurrection, he would have been proven to be just another martyr for a cause and a liar. He told the pharisees and his disciples that when he died he would raise again in three days. If he hadn't, all would have been for naught. His resurrection showed us several important things; 1. He is God 2. He is not a liar 3. He conquered sin and death.

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cobbler because i have faith.

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Having faith is easy when you have faith.

...but it's not circular !! Rolling Eyes

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vikorr i understand what your saying. I have actually been asked questions of this nature before by friends and family who are not christians. It can be hard to have faith in God if you believe there are contradictions in the bible. As a christian, i myself have questioned some things i have read in the ot. The verses you gave are some i have had to study indepth and pray on. I thought "how could God let these little boys be killed bc they were just being kids"? I studied, prayed and found this: The hebrew there used for youths denotes young men( most likely 18-20) this word is used in other places in the ot, always in reference to young men not kids. These young men were mocking a prophet of God. That in itself was justification, back then, for one to be punished and even put to death. Also, the God of the ot can appear to be different than the God of the nt. But, if one studies, they see he is the same. He is Sovereign. He is always a loving God, but he is also a Holy God who will pour out his wrath on those that are wicked (in his eyes). In the ot God does things like destroys a whole city, tells the israelites to kill a whole group of people etc. But we also see a God that David goes to in frustration, crying and even questioning God. A God who is a friend. A God who protects his children and a God who plans to send his son to save the world. And likewise, in the nt we see a God who is loving, but one who killed annais and saphira for lying to him. A God who sent his son to die for all of us and a God who will ,in revelation, pour out his righteous wrath on all who are wicked. All i can say is that if something appears to be a contradiction, study it and just remember the bible says All Things work for the glory of God. God is sovereign, and whether good or bad, all things are for his will. Do i fully understand this NO? but it goes back to me having faith. I have a relationship with God, i know he is real and he loves me and i have faith that whatever i may go through , he is there. Some excellent accredited commentators i read are John Philips and John Macarthur. You can use those to study with alongside the bible to help with any questions. As for your comment on christians who give an awful testimony to the world. I agree with you. How can the world view christianity as being right if there are so called christians that lie hate and do other wicked things. All i can say on that is that Christ himself warned of people who will claim to be christians but are truly as he says "Wolves in sheeps clothing". ANyone can claim to be a part of any religion but if they dont practice and follow the teachings of that religion they are a fraud. So as augustine said,"Don't judge a philosophy by its abuse" If one wants to see what christianity is all about look to Christ. And remember there are many wonderful Godly christians out there that do follow him.

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kate4christ03 wrote:

Echi the initial topic was on what we believed ....I answered then ghost asked me how and why i have faith in what i belief... this was my response

Quote:
Part of my faith comes from my parents. I was raised in a strong christian family. The other part, from God. He called me when i was a kid and i made Christ my Savior and have been a born again christian now for 17 yrs.

Thanks, kate. If you don't mind, I'm interested in the literal meaning of your statement. What do you mean when you say that you were called by God?

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Confidence in your beliefs.

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