Confidence in your beliefs.

neologist wrote:

echi wrote:
real life wrote:
echi wrote:
Can God choose to sin?

Since sin is 'doing what God does not want done' ----

--- your question 'Can God choose to do what God does not want done?' is nonsense.
Can God change his mind about what he wants done?
Yes. But he has said he would not change his purpose to have the earth populated by humans. (Isaiah 45:18)

That is, you may recall, what he told Adam and Eve.

Could he have changed his mind about things since the Bible was written? How would we know?

0 Replies

Okay, neo...how 'bout this then...I know it's an often asked question, but have you any idea why this god created humankind, animals, plants, planets...? The belief is that he CHOSE to create everything, right? Why in the world would he want to do that? If I was God, I think I would have rested on the first day, the second day, the third day, and the whole rest of the week! Was there something lacking? Did he just get lonely or bored or something?

0 Replies

Quote:

Could he have changed his mind about things since the Bible was written? How would we know?

To quote an old bible text, from Malachi somewhere "I am the Lord thy God. I change not."

Of course, apparently he was a God who wanted to be feared in the Old Testament, and a God of Love in the New (in the Old testament the fearful God sent a pack of bears to rip apart a group of children that was calling the Prophet Elijah 'old baldy'). In the Old he outlawed eating pigs (things with cloven hooves) as unclean, and in the new (Romans) it's okay to eat any kind of meat, and God couldn't create something unclean. And don't forget multiple wives Vs a single wife. Probably other oddities in the Bible I'm sure.

0 Replies

vikorr wrote:

Of course, apparently he was a God who wanted to be feared in the Old Testament, and a God of Love in the New (in the Old testament the fearful God sent a pack of bears to rip apart a group of children that was calling the Prophet Elijah 'old baldy'). In the Old he outlawed eating pigs (things with cloven hooves) as unclean, and in the new (Romans) it's okay to eat any kind of meat, and God couldn't create something unclean. And don't forget multiple wives Vs a single wife. Probably other oddities in the Bible I'm sure.

I guess that means that we could all be mortal sinners and not even know it because we haven't got the newest updates yet -- what's to say that God won't wake up on the wrong side of the cloud one morning and say to himself, "God damn...These people are boring as hell...Let's see what they think about a giant asteroid..."?

Awesome.

0 Replies

maporsche wrote:

neologist wrote:
echi wrote:
real life wrote:
echi wrote:
Can God choose to sin?

Since sin is 'doing what God does not want done' ----

--- your question 'Can God choose to do what God does not want done?' is nonsense.
Can God change his mind about what he wants done?
Yes. But he has said he would not change his purpose to have the earth populated by humans. (Isaiah 45:18)

That is, you may recall, what he told Adam and Eve.

Could he have changed his mind about things since the Bible was written? How would we know?

I don't think he cares much for the Yankees anymore. :wink:

Is there anything in particular that pops your cork of curiosity?

0 Replies

echi wrote:

Okay, neo...how 'bout this then...I know it's an often asked question, but have you any idea why this god created humankind, animals, plants, planets...? The belief is that he CHOSE to create everything, right? Why in the world would he want to do that? If I was God, I think I would have rested on the first day, the second day, the third day, and the whole rest of the week! Was there something lacking? Did he just get lonely or bored or something?

Perhaps he had the purpose in mind to fill the universe with sentient beings, each having free will within the limits of his/her/its own dominion.

Boiling that down to earth bound humans, who would not look forward to an indefinitely lasting life free of pain, and which included unlimited growth in the arts, sciences, etc.? Imagine CI being able to visit the entire world in his travels with no restrictions from age or health. Farmerman could farm to his heart's content. You and I could visit with him and pop a few cold ones together. Perhaps we would welcome Timber to the gathering as well.

That's the bible's promise. I don't find that at all disagreeable.

0 Replies

I had "When You Wish Upon a Star" playing on the radio while I was reading your post (seriously). It was perfect. I don't find it disagreeable at all -- it sounds very nice. But it doesn't seem to have worked out that way. Did God make a mistake? err...a miscalculation?

0 Replies

echi wrote:

I had "When You Wish Upon a Star" playing on the radio while I was reading your post (seriously). It was perfect. I don't find it disagreeable at all -- it sounds very nice. But it doesn't seem to have worked out that way. Did God make a mistake? err...a miscalculation?

Nothing he is not willing and able to correct.

0 Replies

Well, can you ask him to get a move on?! What's taking so long???

0 Replies

echi wrote:

Well, can you ask him to get a move on?! What's taking so long???

I could answer simply by saying his concept of time is not the same as ours and why are you so impatient?

But, the best answer is that God is patient. Before paradise is restored to the earth, the bible tells of a dangerous period of time referred to as the 'great tribulation', (Matthew 24:21) followed by a war between God and the nations, Armageddon. (See Daniel 2:44) One thing to keep in mind about these events is that one's survival is not guaranteed, nor is resurrection guaranteed for those who die in that time. Since it is a time of God's judgement, it should be considered an imperative to learn as much as possible about how "Probably YOU may be concealed in the day of Jehovah's anger." (Zephaniah 2:3)

0 Replies

neologist wrote:

echi wrote:
Well, can you ask him to get a move on?! What's taking so long???
I could answer simply by saying his concept of time is not the same as ours and why are you so impatient?

But, the best answer is that God is patient. Before paradise is restored to the earth, the bible tells of a dangerous period of time referred to as the 'great tribulation', (Matthew 24:21) followed by a war between God and the nations, Armageddon. (See Daniel 2:44) One thing to keep in mind about these events is that one's survival is not guaranteed, nor is resurrection guaranteed for those who die in that time. Since it is a time of God's judgement, it should be considered an imperative to learn as much as possible about how "Probably YOU may be concealed in the day of Jehovah's anger." (Zephaniah 2:3)

and may i ask by what process you come to these startling conclusions

for example how do you come to the conclusion that god is patient. most of the old testament suggests he's rather jealous and impatient with a nasty temper

0 Replies

Nothing wrong with a little cherry picking. Whatever floats your boat I suppose.

0 Replies

neo, how is it that when i give a credible point in whatever discussion we are having, you jump to another discussion?

neo wrote:

Quote:

kate4christ03 wrote:
Quote:

neo john 5:28 doesn't say that...

John 5:28,29:

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (King James)

"Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment." (American Standard)

If the judgement were based on deeds done in one's past life, it would be inconsistent with Romans 6:7; "He who has died has been acquitted from his sin."

Revelation 20: 12, 13 refers to the dead being judged according to scrolls opened in the resurrection.

Fair is fair, Kate. You would have God create individuals knowing they would be consigned to failure and then bring them back to life to revisit their failures. Then what? Roast them?

Really, Kate. No wonder the atheists are turned off by the God you describe.

i already answered this about 10 pages back and since you gave no response then, i assumed the discussion was over. but once more:
neo you have no scripture that states that once a person dies, they are then given another chance to be retaught about Christ. the scripture in john you give, never says after they are brought back, that they get another opportunity to choose Jesus. and as i stated earlier, if God were allowing all to be "retaught" who in their right mind would then willingly, knowingly reject him?
now if you could please stick to the subject, i would like a credible response to my last post. You keep denying the absolute foreknowledge of God, yet scriptures show your wrong.
Gods foreknowledge
acts 2:22-23 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain
1peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
romans 8:29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren
eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will
jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."
these scriptures are clear that God knows everything before anything happens. and so far i have been given nothing credible to disprove my belief in the absolute omniscience of God.

0 Replies

kate4christ03 wrote:

. . . if God were allowing all to be "retaught" who in their right mind would then willingly, knowingly reject him?

Adam and Eve rejected God's sovereignty, right? As did Satan, correct? And do not the demons believe?

kate4christ03 wrote:

now if you could please stick to the subject, i would like a credible response to my last post. You keep denying the absolute foreknowledge of God, yet scriptures show your wrong.
Gods foreknowledge
acts 2:22-23 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain
1peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
romans 8:29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren
eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will
jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."
these scriptures are clear that God knows everything before anything happens. and so far i have been given nothing credible to disprove my belief in the absolute omniscience of God.

Fine, Kate. But all the references to foreknowledge and predestination refer back only to the time of the founding of Satan's 'age', our current world. Read the prophecy of the seed in Genesis 3:15, when this time began. This would never have been spoken if the first humans had been faithful.

You can't seem to get it out of your head that our true free will depends on God's willingness to refrain from peering into our outcome. While it is true that he did so in the case of a few, (Jesus, Jacob. etc), those who have been selected to become the "many brethren" were not, of necessity, chosen by name.

It's amazing that you can't see the conundrum posed by your belief.

0 Replies

Quote:

You can't seem to get it out of your head that our true free will depends on God's willingness to refrain from peering into our outcome.

I seem to remember having a very similar discussion many years back.

Knowledge of what choice someone is going to make does not equal you are making the said choice for them.

Perhaps it's a bit like (though not quite the same as) saying "I know the sun will come up tomorrow, therefore I make the sun come up tomorrow - knowledge of a future event does not mean you cause it.

0 Replies

vikorr wrote:

Knowledge of what choice someone is going to make does not equal you are making the said choice for them.

No, but it does mean that someone cannot change their mind. If god knows that I will, for example, kill someone tomorrow then there is no option for me to change my mind. I have lost my free will if the future is foretold.

Your sun example is good, but for my purposes not yours. The sun does not have free will, the sun cannot choose to not come up (this is a very incorrect statement from an astronomy standpoint, but forgive me for the simplicity). The argument is that humans are like the sun if god knows or even CAN know what happens in the future. If god knows everything that will happen then like the sun, humans cannot choose to 'not come up'.

0 Replies

maporsche wrote:

vikorr wrote:
Knowledge of what choice someone is going to make does not equal you are making the said choice for them.

No, but it does mean that someone cannot change their mind. If god knows that I will, for example, kill someone tomorrow then there is no option for me to change my mind. I have lost my free will if the future is foretold.

Your sun example is good, but for my purposes not yours. The sun does not have free will, the sun cannot choose to not come up (this is a very incorrect statement from an astronomy standpoint, but forgive me for the simplicity). The argument is that humans are like the sun if god knows or even CAN know what happens in the future. If god knows everything that will happen then like the sun, humans cannot choose to 'not come up'.

Certainly Jehovah has the power to peer into the outcome of our free moral choices, but he has, first of all, no need to do so because he has the power to correct any eventuality which may seem to interfere with his purpose. Secondly, his declining to do so is perhaps his greatest gift to us because it makes our free will truly free.

0 Replies

neologist wrote:

maporsche wrote:
vikorr wrote:
Knowledge of what choice someone is going to make does not equal you are making the said choice for them.

No, but it does mean that someone cannot change their mind. If god knows that I will, for example, kill someone tomorrow then there is no option for me to change my mind. I have lost my free will if the future is foretold.

Your sun example is good, but for my purposes not yours. The sun does not have free will, the sun cannot choose to not come up (this is a very incorrect statement from an astronomy standpoint, but forgive me for the simplicity). The argument is that humans are like the sun if god knows or even CAN know what happens in the future. If god knows everything that will happen then like the sun, humans cannot choose to 'not come up'.
Certainly Jehovah has the power to peer into the outcome of our free moral choices, but he has, first of all, no need to do so because he has the power to correct any eventuality which may seem to interfere with his purpose. Secondly, his declining to do so is perhaps his greatest gift to us because it makes our free will truly free.

neo, You're not making any sense here; god does not intervene on anything whether man-made or the consequence of nature - such as floods, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, land-slides, disease, pestilence, and what have you. Prayer does not help, and man-made bombs and nature kills indiscriminately - whether religious or not.

0 Replies

neologist wrote:

maporsche wrote:
vikorr wrote:
Knowledge of what choice someone is going to make does not equal you are making the said choice for them.

No, but it does mean that someone cannot change their mind. If god knows that I will, for example, kill someone tomorrow then there is no option for me to change my mind. I have lost my free will if the future is foretold.

Your sun example is good, but for my purposes not yours. The sun does not have free will, the sun cannot choose to not come up (this is a very incorrect statement from an astronomy standpoint, but forgive me for the simplicity). The argument is that humans are like the sun if god knows or even CAN know what happens in the future. If god knows everything that will happen then like the sun, humans cannot choose to 'not come up'.
Certainly Jehovah has the power to peer into the outcome of our free moral choices, but he has, first of all, no need to do so because he has the power to correct any eventuality which may seem to interfere with his purpose. Secondly, his declining to do so is perhaps his greatest gift to us because it makes our free will truly free.

Neo, it sounds to me like this statement is in disagreement with the previous post I posted about god knowing all possible outcomes. You seemed to agree with that statement.

In this statement you seem to be saying that god knows the ONLY possible outcome, which is quite different than the previous discussion that we had.

It seems to me that if god knows EXACTLY what we will do (or even if he can know, but chooses not to look) then there is no free will. Nothing is dependent on what decision I make today as the decision has already been made in order for the future to be foretold.

On the other hand, if god doesn't know my decision, and cannot know my decision because of free will, but he knows what the outcomes will be based on these decisions then that would at least be congruant.

0 Replies

maporsche and CI, you could both be right. The bible does not specifically say how God is able to offer us choice, only that he does.

I, presumptuously have assumed that he simply chooses not to look into what otherwise might be inevitable. That he did not know in advance the abominations resulting from the Edenic rebellion is indicated by his regrets expressed in Genesis 6:6.

Nevertheless, he has always been fully prepared to deal with the consequences of any threat to the outworking of his purpose as he told Isaiah his word will "certainly have success." (Isaiah 55:11)

As for Jehovah not intervening and somehow protecting mankind from "anything whether man-made or the consequence of nature", as CI has observed, I would have to point out that the control of this age, our system of things, has been turned over to Satan for him to prove (or be disproved in) his allegation that humans would be better off setting standards for themselves. (See John 14:30, Luke 22:31) It's his music for now until God pulls the plug.

0 Replies

Confidence in your beliefs.

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know