Confidence in your beliefs.

Diest TKO wrote:

Fair question, but perhaps you misunderstand. I simply put a greater premium on the persuit of knowledge rather than the volume of knowledge acquired.

I concider myself a student of the world.

If I am speaking to cryptically, I can provide a literal example. I am an aerospace engineer. When I began learning about my field of study, I measured my passion by how much I knew. Moreover, I displayed that information. Now, as I have matured, I find myself more impassioned by the seemingly endless amounts in information I yet to know. I feel like I am at my best when I am challenged with new concepts. These questions feed my passion, and I have seen this with others too.

You have a passion for your work. That's fine. I'm a material scientist, so I understand. There are often days when I look forward to going to work in the morning because I'm working on an interesting problem. However, I recognize the limitations of the scientific method. While it can shed light on all sorts of questions about the world, it is very limited in its ability to answer the ultimate questions about our origin and destiny, such as the origin of the universe (What caused the big bang?), the existence of the soul (Does consciousness arise from a complex brain structure, or is the brain simply the mechanism by which allows consciousness to function in the physical world?), the existence of God (Are all of the numerous reported spiritual experiences recorded throughout the world throughout history simply a derangement of the mind, or self-hypnosis, or do they reflect a spiritual dimension to human existence?), the afterlife (Are all the reports of near-death experiences only the mis-perception of an oxygen-starved brain, or are there non-physical dimensions to consciousness to which the soul retreats when the physical body ceases to function?) These questions also interest me. My interest in spirituality began even before my decision to become a physicist. From my point of view, study of the world through objective means is incomplete. Without self-transcending spiritual practice, we are stuck within the conceptual mind. Identification with mental constructs provides us with our sense of self. It is the primal error from which all other errors arise. You are not your mind. You are not your thoughts. You are something much deeper. Go beyond the thinking mind to discover who you really are.

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Coolwhip wrote:

If someone seeks to know where we come from, than why not become a biologist? Than they would really dig deep into the matter of human existence. But very few people do this. Why? Because it is hard[/i] and requires much more of that person. Most people seek easy answers.

Yes, and I agree with the criticisms of creationists who try to make the scientific evidence fit within the confines of their literal interpretation of the bible. It is absurd. On the other hand, it is apparent to me that biologists and scientists, in general, do not have any special insight into the spiritual dimension, or the ultimate questions about life (with the possible exception of the arising of complex biological systems on earth). The study of biology or other sciences is hard and many people are not suited to it. The same could probably be said of self-transcending spiritual transformation. Most people opt for easy answers, as you say. They are not looking for truth, but for comfort -- they want confirmation of what they already believe. That is the way the ego functions -- my identity is all wrapped up with my beliefs and challenging those beliefs is perceived as a threat, so I become defensive. Letting go of the attachments to mental constructs allows a person to have a more open mind.

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IFeelFree - Thank you for the reply. I only gave an example, I do NOT live my entire life by the scientific model. I have passion for far more than just my work.

The more I learn, the more I desire to know.
K
O

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kate4christ03 wrote:

Cyracuz i don't think your being rude. I don't mind answering. i have no doubts that God is in me. It's not my imagination, feelings, or overcompensation for something. I love him and i cant deny him.

I wish I could say this.

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kate4christ03 wrote:

echi its all about faith. and once i stepped out on faith as a child, God revealed himself to me. Did he physically manifest himself, NO. but i feel his presence and i see the work he has done in my life.i can't give you a pic of him but i know he is real. As i stated earlier why not read the book "Case for Christ" by lee strobel. He was a hard core athiest, who set out to prove Christ was not real, after his wife got saved.

I'm curious about your statement, "I feel his presence". If it is not too personal to talk about, may I ask how you feel his presence? Is it a fullness in your heart, someone that you have an internal dialog with, or is it faith in his presence? Or something else?

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The human brain is hardwired to believe in one god or another; that's for the majority of people on this planet, and it doesn't matter whether they live in backward countries with little or no "formal" education and modern "conveniences" or fully developed countries where scientific advancement is on-going.

It's all about genetics and environment. A very small percentage of humans believe in atheism; I just happen to be one.

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I would interject that faith based on 'feeling' alone is suspect.

In the few times of my youth when I partied overmuch with John Barleycorn, I felt great. And I've been told that a few hits from some popular pharmaceuticals will produce a similar euphoria.

Not unlike, I will aver, the fine feeling one gets from a trip to the higher consciousness of the astral plane.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

The human brain is hardwired to believe in one god or another; that's for the majority of people on this planet, and it doesn't matter whether they live in backward countries with little or no "formal" education and modern "conveniences" or fully developed countries where scientific advancement is on-going.

It's all about genetics and environment. A very small percentage of humans believe in atheism; I just happen to be one.

In a sense, then, it could be argued that atheism is "unnatural".

We could also say that love is hard-wired in the human brain. Does that make it "wrong" (whatever that means)?

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neologist wrote:

I would interject that faith based on 'feeling' alone is suspect.

In the few times of my youth when I partied overmuch with John Barleycorn, I felt great. And I've been told that a few hits from some popular pharmaceuticals will produce a similar euphoria.

Not unlike, I will aver, the fine feeling one gets from a trip to the higher consciousness of the astral plane.

If meditation, for example, only produced a "high", then it would be of limited value. There is considerable evidence (much of it scientific) that there are considerably more benefits than that.

Health applications and clinical studies of meditation

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IFeelFree: In a sense, then, it could be argued that atheism is "unnatural".

True. It's out of the "norm," whatever normal is.

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IFeelFree: We could also say that love is hard-wired in the human brain. Does that make it "wrong" (whatever that means)?

I have often related "love" to religion. It's based on some subjective value we place on those things that doesn't have a way for us to show by evidence. There is no way to qualify it through words or actions except for the external expressions and actions which can be deceiving. It isn't "wrong," for any one person, because it makes them think and feel it's the right thing for them.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

IFeelFree: We could also say that love is hard-wired in the human brain. Does that make it "wrong" (whatever that means)?

I have often related "love" to religion. It's based on some subjective value we place on those things that doesn't have a way for us to show by evidence. There is no way to qualify it through words or actions except for the external expressions and actions which can be deceiving. It isn't "wrong," for any one person, because it makes them think and feel it's the right thing for them.

I see the analogy. I think it is not always helpful or enlightening to dissect subjective experiences too much. Perhaps there is a psychological benefit, for some people at least, to have spiritual beliefs whether or not they are true!

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Although prayer does not work for third parties (research at Yale and Harvard), it seems it does help the patient if they pray for themselves. I think the brain's positive outlook is the key, and not so much that the prayer is "heard." In similar situations, I think it is helpful for the individual.

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That sounds very much like a placebo effect.

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Coolwhip, Precisely!

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The placebo effect is specific to drugs in which the suggestion is made that a drug will have a certain effect, but an inert drug is substituted for the real one. In the case of spiritual ritual or practice, no physical cause is claimed for the effects. If a metaphysical or psychological cause is claimed, and the beneficial effects are observed, then it is not placebo. If the beneficial effects can be measured in the laboratory, it can also be claimed that it is not (completely) a delusion. It might be suggestion or self-hypnosis. This comes down to interpretation. If a certain spiritual ritual or practice has beneficial effects, do the experiences of the subject have any deeper significance? If I have feelings of love toward others, does that "mean" anything? Is it a delusion or suggestion? We are not machines. Internal experiences are meaningful. We assign meaning to our internal, subjective experiences all the time.

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IFeelFree - What you described is still the placebo effect, or at least the nonphysical facimile. I think that the prayer is very weel described as a placebo, even if only metaphorically.

T
K
O

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Diest TKO wrote:

IFeelFree - What you described is still the placebo effect, or at least the nonphysical facimile. I think that the prayer is very weel described as a placebo, even if only metaphorically.

The word "placebo" suggests that something is being substituted for the real thing to produce the desired effect. What is the real thing?

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Actual medicine or real therapy.

T
K
O

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Quote:

I'm curious about your statement, "I feel his presence". If it is not too personal to talk about, may I ask how you feel his presence? Is it a fullness in your heart, someone that you have an internal dialog with, or is it faith in his presence? Or something else?

for me personally its like a wholeness or completeness, if that makes sense. and sometimes its internal dialogue.

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Confidence in your beliefs.

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