How long will christians take this???

Extropy wrote:

. . . then why have God in the first place?

Cool party tricks and fireworks.

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Extropy, good is not something under God that he decides, nor is it above God that he must submit to it; rather, good is what God is.

[/QUOTE]Oh I grasp it. It means that God holds man to higher standard than himself. I understand quite well, and I don't care for what the nature or situation is. It's a double standard; hypocracy.

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A married, sexually active Christian can say to an unmarried Christian, "It is wrong for you to have sex." This not hypocrisy because the married Christian is in a different situation (marriage). Someone with a medical prescription for marijuana can say to someone who doesn't, "It is illegal is you to smoke pot." That is not hypocrisy because of the different situation. An adult can tell a child that they should submit to their 1st grade teacher while the adult treats the teacher as an equal. That is not hypocrisy. God, all-knowing, perfect, and all-deserving can tell a man not to have wrath against another human who is by no means more steeped in sin than they are, but God is the author of life and all praise is due to Him. So when men constantly rebel, deny Him, spit in His face, give Him the finger, etc, then how is God's wrath unjustified!

All of these examples are connected and I feel that you would accept the first 3. Then why not the 4th?

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Run 4 fun wrote:

Extropy, good is not something under God that he decides, nor is it above God that he must submit to it; rather, good is what God is.

If God is all-good, then that would mean that anything God does is Good. That also means that it is impossible for God to do bad, and therefore everything that is possible for God to do must be not-bad id est good, since God is goodness itself. However, God can do anything, which implies that everything is good, and nothing is bad.

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Run 4 fun wrote:

A married, sexually active Christian can say to an unmarried Christian, "It is wrong for you to have sex." This not hypocrisy because the married Christian is in a different situation (marriage).

That's still hypocracy, Christian or not! People have sex for many reasons, and if two people love each other, there is certainly nothing wrong with having sex.

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Someone with a medical prescription for marijuana can say to someone who doesn't, "It is illegal is you to smoke pot." That is not hypocrisy because of the different situation.

Of course the document that governs such declaration is clear about this. No scripture yet to address why God can hold others to a higher standard.

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An adult can tell a child that they should submit to their 1st grade teacher while the adult treats the teacher as an equal. That is not hypocrisy.

And if the child disobeys, the child is held to juvenile punishment, not adult punishment. If God wants to hold man to a divine standard, we'd better have devi9ne privilage. Which we do not.

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God, all-knowing, perfect, and all-deserving can tell a man not to have wrath against another human who is by no means more steeped in sin than they are, but God is the author of life and all praise is due to Him. So when men constantly rebel, deny Him, spit in His face, give Him the finger, etc, then how is God's wrath unjustified!

It's unjust because the standard is greater for man than it is for God.

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All of these examples are connected and I feel that you would accept the first 3. Then why not the 4th?

If God had struggle, if God had any real circumstances that were out of it's foresight, if God had failure, if God had strife, then and only then would I be interested in What gives God the right to defend its actions with circumstances.

Until then, it's just man that stuggles, and man's circumstances that are insignificant?

Yet another double standard.

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Extropy wrote:

xingu-"Because it's a cop-out answer" is not a good enough arguement. You could say that for anything.

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Why can't you grasp that because God is different both in nature an situation and therefore what is sin for human's may not necessarily be a sin for God. Why is this so difficult?

The question is: How is sin determined?

Is something is a sin just because God does not like it? If God suddenly liked to boil babies for fun, then would that suddenly make boiling babies a good thing?

Or is there something else other than God, that determines it, and that God does not determine morality? If God did not determine morality then why have God in the first place?

Humans make their Gods and their Gods rules. Sin is in the eye of the beholder.

The recipe is simple.

First, make your God.

Second, take whatever you hate the most and find a verse in your holy book that supports your hate. Ignore all passages that contradict your hate.

Third, proclaim to the world the evil and sin that you so hate is hateful to God as well. Those who continue to partake in this sin will have to face the eternal pain and suffering that will be inflicted upon them by that God that loves them unconditionally. When their God is pissed it can be mean, wrathful, and cruel. You have to use God to support your hate. It gives your hate authority, divine authority.

Hence the institution of fear is introduced to make the ignorant and dumb obey and follow. This type of Godly fear is replaced with real earthly fear in the form of persecution, torture and execution when and if worldly laws, institutions and justice system break down and a void in power occurs. Iraq is a prime example today.

In American we have a band of religious fanatics who would do the same to their fellow Americans as the Sunnis and Shiites are doing to each other in Iraq if, for some reason, our system decayed and the rule of law dissolved. They are the American Teliban, good God-fearing very conservative Christians. They make the rules. They will tell you what God hates and what God loves. And if they had the power they would persecute and kill in the name of Jesus.

Would you like to see one of these American Telibans. Check out this three part video;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDRxmqOn7x4

We make the Gods and the rules.

Why do you think there are so many Gods out there? Because everyone knows what God is? Or maybe no one knows what God is so they make their own?

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Extropy wrote:

Run 4 fun wrote:
Extropy, good is not something under God that he decides, nor is it above God that he must submit to it; rather, good is what God is.

If God is all-good, then that would mean that anything God does is Good. That also means that it is impossible for God to do bad, and therefore everything that is possible for God to do must be not-bad id est good, since God is goodness itself. However, God can do anything, which implies that everything is good, and nothing is bad.

Actually, God cannot do anything. He cannot make a rock so big that He cannot lift it. He cannot microwave a buritto so hot that He can't eat it. He cannot be evil, because that would contradict his nature. God cannot make Himself not exist. Etc. This does not mean, though, that He is not Almighty, for everything is under His power.

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Run 4 fun wrote:

He cannot be evil, because that would contradict his nature.

Oh really? Is it evil to kill innocent babies? If so than why is not God doing evil when he orders his favorite humans (God is prejudice and discriminates) to kill innocent babies?

Tough question but there is an easy answer.

Change the rules. Establish a double standard.

In the humans world there's evil. In God's world there's no evil so no matter what God does, it's not evil.

Hypocrisy is a virtue in God's world.

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Extropy wrote:

Run 4 fun wrote:
Extropy, good is not something under God that he decides, nor is it above God that he must submit to it; rather, good is what God is.

If God is all-good, then that would mean that anything God does is Good. That also means that it is impossible for God to do bad, and therefore everything that is possible for God to do must be not-bad id est good, since God is goodness itself. However, God can do anything, which implies that everything is good, and nothing is bad.

No, it doesn't imply that everything is good, because not everything that is done, has been done by God.

Many things are done by man, not God.

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No, it doesn't imply that everything is good, because not everything that is done, has been done by God.

Many things are done by man, not God.

However, if God can do anything, and anything God can do is good, then anything is good.

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Actually, God cannot do anything. He cannot make a rock so big that He cannot lift it. He cannot microwave a buritto so hot that He can't eat it. He cannot be evil, because that would contradict his nature. God cannot make Himself not exist. Etc. This does not mean, though, that He is not Almighty, for everything is under His power.

By "everything" I suppose that would it include affecting this universe by way of space, time, matter, or energy. Surely God can influence, create, or destroy matter, can he not? Surely God can influence, create, or destroy energy, can he not? Then if so, that means that God can do anything with matter and energy. Since God can influence/create/destroy matter or energy, it means that all manipulations of matter or energy is good, since God cannot do it if it were bad. Obviously, then, releasing a bomb on innocent people for fun and killing them thereby would then be good, since triggering a bomb is nothing more than a manipulation of matter or energy. Is that what you are saying?

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Extropy wrote:

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No, it doesn't imply that everything is good, because not everything that is done, has been done by God.

Many things are done by man, not God.

However, if God can do anything, and anything God can do is good, then anything is good.

No.

Why do you think that it must follow that if God COULD do something, then He MUST HAVE done it?

God COULD do your kid's homework. But if the homework is done, it doesn't mean that God did it, does it?

God CAN do anything. But not everything that IS done has been done by God. Man makes choices and does things too.

Man is responsible for his own actions. God is not responsible for man's actions, because God did not do them.

So , if man does something bad, it doesn't mean that bad is good and it doesn't mean that God did it.

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real life wrote:

Man is responsible for his own actions. God is not responsible for man's actions, because God did not do them.

Except when Man does something good. If man does something good, it's because of God, if man does something bad it's because of man.

I say that man certainly is responcible for their actions, but not only the bad actions.

Good itself cannot be the sole nature of God, nor the inverse.

Man does great acts every day without the nessesity of a god.

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Run 4 fun wrote:

A married, sexually active Christian can say to an unmarried Christian, "It is wrong for you to have sex." This not hypocrisy because the married Christian is in a different situation (marriage).

That's still hypocracy, Christian or not! People have sex for many reasons, and if two people love each other, there is certainly nothing wrong with having sex.

That's why I said Christian. They are both Christian. In the Christian worldveiw, fornication is wrong. Maybe not in your worldveiw, but these are both Christians, so it is not hypocrisy.

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Someone with a medical prescription for marijuana can say to someone who doesn't, "It is illegal is you to smoke pot." That is not hypocrisy because of the different situation.

Of course the document that governs such declaration is clear about this. No scripture yet to address why God can hold others to a higher standard.

See, you agree with different situations here showing that there is not a double standard. How much more is it different b/tw man and God.

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An adult can tell a child that they should submit to their 1st grade teacher while the adult treats the teacher as an equal. That is not hypocrisy.

And if the child disobeys, the child is held to juvenile punishment, not adult punishment. If God wants to hold man to a divine standard, we'd better have devi9ne privilage. Which we do not.

Who said that we're held to a divine standard. And if we are, then we've failed, so we don't deserve divine privilage.

The standard is in no way higher for man. Justice is an even standard. And humans get this nice thing called grace and forgiveness if we repent.

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If God had struggle, if God had any real circumstances that were out of it's foresight, if God had failure, if God had strife, then and only then would I be interested in What gives God the right to defend its actions with circumstances.

Until then, it's just man that stuggles, and man's circumstances that are insignificant?

Yet another double standard.

Who said man's circumstances are insignificant? If they are, then there is a double standard, but no one has said that that is the case.

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xingu wrote:

Run 4 fun wrote:
He cannot be evil, because that would contradict his nature.

Oh really? Is it evil to kill innocent babies? If so than why is not God doing evil when he orders his favorite humans (God is prejudice and discriminates) to kill innocent babies?

Tough question but there is an easy answer.

Change the rules. Establish a double standard.

In the humans world there's evil. In God's world there's no evil so no matter what God does, it's not evil.

Hypocrisy is a virtue in God's world.

1) You have not established that God has ever killed innocent babies.
2) You have not established that "God's world" has no evil.
3) You have not established that hypocrisy is a virtue in "God's world"

That's 3 unproven assumptions.

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Actually, God cannot do anything. He cannot make a rock so big that He cannot lift it. He cannot microwave a buritto so hot that He can't eat it. He cannot be evil, because that would contradict his nature. God cannot make Himself not exist. Etc. This does not mean, though, that He is not Almighty, for everything is under His power.

By "everything" I suppose that would it include affecting this universe by way of space, time, matter, or energy. Surely God can influence, create, or destroy matter, can he not? Surely God can influence, create, or destroy energy, can he not? Then if so, that means that God can do anything with matter and energy. Since God can influence/create/destroy matter or energy, it means that all manipulations of matter or energy is good, since God cannot do it if it were bad. Obviously, then, releasing a bomb on innocent people for fun and killing them thereby would then be good, since triggering a bomb is nothing more than a manipulation of matter or energy. Is that what you are saying?

Real life covered this well enough when he said that God doesn't do it. Does God have the capabilities or not? It doesn't matter because He doesn't do it. He doesn't trigger a bomb on innocent people for fun. He would find it fun!

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Diest TKO wrote:

real life wrote:
Man is responsible for his own actions. God is not responsible for man's actions, because God did not do them.

Except when Man does something good. If man does something good, it's because of God, if man does something bad it's because of man.

I say that man certainly is responcible for their actions, but not only the bad actions.

Good itself cannot be the sole nature of God, nor the inverse.

Man does great acts every day without the nessesity of a god.

Who said that if someone does something good, then it is because of God? You keep saying things that you disagree with as if one of us said it, but you're just throwing it in there on your own.

You can assert that good itself cannot be the nature of God, but unless you support it, then it is merely an arbitrary assertion without credibility.

Your final statement is just question begging. You must establish that great acts occur apart from God (I'm not asserting that they don't), or you must establish that God does not exist.

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Run 4 fun wrote:

xingu wrote:
Run 4 fun wrote:
He cannot be evil, because that would contradict his nature.

Oh really? Is it evil to kill innocent babies? If so than why is not God doing evil when he orders his favorite humans (God is prejudice and discriminates) to kill innocent babies?

Tough question but there is an easy answer.

Change the rules. Establish a double standard.

In the humans world there's evil. In God's world there's no evil so no matter what God does, it's not evil.

Hypocrisy is a virtue in God's world.

1) You have not established that God has ever killed innocent babies.
2) You have not established that "God's world" has no evil.
3) You have not established that hypocrisy is a virtue in "God's world"

That's 3 unproven assumptions.

Are you saying the babies God killed are guilty? If so, of what?

You said God cannot be evil. So how can there be evil in his domain if he has no evil? Mind you we are not talking of the planet earth but of God's city of gold. Are there bad guys running amok in his city killing and raping his angles?

Hypocrisy must be a virtue if God can kill innocent people and not do evil. If we did the same we would be evil. There is the double standard.

God is a slacker; he takes the easy route. He, by your assertion, can do anything he wants and it can't be evil because he is unable to do evil. We, on the other hand, are put under very strict rules, rules God himself can't abide by. If we break these rules we are evil, sinful and if we don't choose the right religious beliefs we are doomed.

BTW, what would you think of a person who was so hateful he would want to rip the fetuses out of womens bellies? Just another good God-fearing Christian showing the world his humanity and love? What would you think of a God that hated in the same manner?

Psalm 21:8
Thine hand shall find out all thine enemies: thy right hand shall find out those that hate thee.
21:9
Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
21:10
Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
As a snail [which] melteth, let [every one of them] pass away: [like] the untimely birth of a woman, [that] they may not see the sun.
- Psalm 58:3,8

Hosea 9:16
Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay [even] the beloved [fruit] of their womb.
9:17
My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations.

Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
- Genesis 7:23

1Samuel 15:2
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember [that] which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid [wait] for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
15:3
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Joshua destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD commanded.
- Joshua 10:40

The LORD delivered them before us; and we destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones.
- Deuteronomy 2:33-34

Kill every male among the little ones.
- Numbers 31:17

Samaria shall become desolate; they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
- Hosea 13:16

With thee will I [the LORD] break in pieces the young man and the maid.
- Jeremiah 51:22

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
- Psalm 137:9

Notice all the love emanating from God in the above verses? Is it not nice to know we have the free will to choose our beliefs without persecution or the threat of death?

In the human world, that is, but not God's world. Perhaps that's why so many people kill in the name of God. God has shown us the way.

I suppose the argument Christians use that God gives life so he has the right to take it away may be convincing for some but for God to tell, command, humans to kill other humans, including babies; is that the way to teach humans to love and tolerate one another?

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xingu wrote:

Are you saying the babies God killed are guilty? If so, of what?

Why the iniquity of their fathers (and mothers), of course. Feel the love.

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Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

Exd 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's
children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].

Num 14:18 The LORD [is] longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing [the guilty], visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation].

Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me,

Lev 26:39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.

Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;

Psa 109:14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.

Isa 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

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mesquite wrote:

xingu wrote:
Are you saying the babies God killed are guilty? If so, of what?

Why the iniquity of their fathers (and mothers), of course. Feel the love.

Oh yes, I forgot. If the parents commit a sin the children must die. I believe that's called God's justice.

Kill the first born children of Egypt to teach the Egyptians not to mess with God's chosen. Perhaps we should use that method in our criminal justice system. Don't kill the murderers, kill what they love the most. What greater pain can you inflict on one than to kill their love ones.

It's God's way.

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Run 4 fun wrote:

Who said that if someone does something good, then it is because of God? You keep saying things that you disagree with as if one of us said it, but you're just throwing it in there on your own.

The claim was made that God himeself is the nature of good; as to say that "Good" itself is God.

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You can assert that good itself cannot be the nature of God, but unless you support it, then it is merely an arbitrary assertion without credibility.

I already have supported this. Man has done good without God.

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Your final statement is just question begging. You must establish that great acts occur apart from God (I'm not asserting that they don't), or you must establish that God does not exist.

I don't need to do either. It's not beeging anything. Man does great things without the nessesity of God. It is the Christian platform that has made the move to make the good things man does and give credit to God. The burden of proof lies with them.

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Run 4 fun wrote:

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Run 4 fun wrote:

A married, sexually active Christian can say to an unmarried Christian, "It is wrong for you to have sex." This not hypocrisy because the married Christian is in a different situation (marriage).

That's still hypocracy, Christian or not! People have sex for many reasons, and if two people love each other, there is certainly nothing wrong with having sex.

That's why I said Christian. They are both Christian. In the Christian worldveiw, fornication is wrong. Maybe not in your worldveiw, but these are both Christians, so it is not hypocrisy.

So if I'm ot a Christina, I CAN have premartial sex! Sweet! This is why I said it's irrelevant whether or not you are a Christian. Christians what to hold ALL men to the same standard regaurdless of them being Christian or not.

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Someone with a medical prescription for marijuana can say to someone who doesn't, "It is illegal is you to smoke pot." That is not hypocrisy because of the different situation.

Of course the document that governs such declaration is clear about this. No scripture yet to address why God can hold others to a higher standard.

See, you agree with different situations here showing that there is not a double standard. How much more is it different b/tw man and God.

Certainly I see a difference, I'm not an absolutist. Again, where is the scripture to back what you say? How can man and God kill, yet when man does it's a sin.

What about war trials? Do you think that american generals have always acted so noble? We put other generals to death for their acts. why does the victor decide?

If your only ammunition that God can have a double standard is that he's bogger, or has greater power, then you are directly supporting my original post.

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An adult can tell a child that they should submit to their 1st grade teacher while the adult treats the teacher as an equal. That is not hypocrisy.

And if the child disobeys, the child is held to juvenile punishment, not adult punishment. If God wants to hold man to a divine standard, we'd better have devi9ne privilage. Which we do not.

Who said that we're held to a divine standard. And if we are, then we've failed, so we don't deserve divine privilage.

Who says? Christians do. "Do this, or go to hell." That's who.

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The standard is in no way higher for man. Justice is an even standard. And humans get this nice thing called grace and forgiveness if we repent.

Justice!!!!!?????

It's justice that a murderer can in his last moment on earth accept Jesus and go to heaven, yet a peaceful man like Ghandi goes to Hell? As a Christian, I hope you believe in repentance as much as you say.

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If God had struggle, if God had any real circumstances that were out of it's foresight, if God had failure, if God had strife, then and only then would I be interested in What gives God the right to defend its actions with circumstances.

Until then, it's just man that stuggles, and man's circumstances that are insignificant?

Yet another double standard.

Who said man's circumstances are insignificant? If they are, then there is a double standard, but no one has said that that is the case.

Who says? Christians do. If I lust in my mind, I've comitted the same sin as if it were in the flesh? The circumstances throw a giangantic crowbar of separation between the two, yet the circumstances are irrelevant?

Lame.

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How long will christians take this???

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