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Studying Europe's Muslim terrorists

 
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 01:09 pm
@Steve 41oo,
Steve 41oo wrote:

Dag I dont hate anyone. I object to the stupid and sometimes dangerous ideas that some people carry around in their heads. i have a particular dislike of a philosophy be it communist islamic or nazi which is both extremist and threatens me. I'm surprised you cant understand that.


My father sat in the communist prison many a time, my grandparents (his parents) were both in prison in WWII for anti-fascist propaganda.

I prefer quest for understanding of complex situation to hatred. Hate communism? Who? Every last communist that I meet? What's it gonna do for me? Absolutely nothing.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 01:10 pm
@dagmaraka,
Okay I'll let the man speak for himself (kind of me, that) but I commend my previous remarks to you.

There was a good TV programme on recently here about what is being preached in one of London's main mosques (and it was a liberal one).

It did not make for comfortable viewing.

And many of Britain's Pakistanis send their sons to madrassars in east Pakistan, where needlework (in the sense of crochet) is not on the curriculum.
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 01:15 pm
@dagmaraka,
I'm quite sure your friends would not do such things. Otherwise they would not be your friends.

Why must I hold back from the truth as I see it because the subject is religion? Why should Islam be beyond criticism?

I think you are so concerned to protect the feelings of your friends that you have lost sight of reality.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 01:18 pm
@McTag,
Certainly. Nobody has said anything to deny that. Extremism is a problem.

There is also plenty of moderate progressive imams, there is active youth that is learning to combine their religion with their identities of being citizens of Western democratic societies. Many are working hard in their societies, work in their city councils, in non profit organizations.... but they don't make the news. There is no sensation in it. I know a few of them... so when somebody dismisses all of Muslims as deranged lunatics, it becomes personally offensive.

Two sides to a coin. That's all I ask. Some proportionality.

btw, do you know that "madrasa" translates as "school"? just throwing it out there... this is not to you personally, but there is so much hysteria out there and people often don't even have a clue what they are hysterical about.
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 01:32 pm
@dagmaraka,
Steve, Islam is not "beyond criticism".... but it's not a black and white issue either.

Anyway, I'm off for a few days, I think all that could have been said, was said... we will likely not ever agree. I'm off to a conference on social cohesion policies of large European cities, as luck has it. Fortunately there are many people looking for a way out together....including quite a few Muslim municipal officials.
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 01:50 pm
@dagmaraka,
Quote:
My Muslim friends do not do such things.


while i wouldn't say that we have muslim friends , we have met many muslims (mainly from indonesia) that crew the ships of holland-america line .
we've cruised with holland-america for over twenty years and have found the muslim crew members to be the most considerate and friendly people WITHOUT EXCEPTION !

i can actually say that on the longer cruises they did became (short-term) friends .
while they are always friendly and considerate , they are even more so with the elderly (that includes us) and small children - of course , we've always treated them with respect and they were no doubt responding to us similarly .
hbg
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 02:20 pm
@dagmaraka,
dagmaraka wrote:

Steve, Islam is not "beyond criticism"...
well try criticising it and tell me how you get on. Anyway have a good conference.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 02:56 pm
@dagmaraka,

I know a madrassa is a school, and I know a lot of what is taught in religious schools in east Pakistan.
The boys are radicalised, and taught to be warriors in the cause of their religion.

I've got muslim friends, by the way, but I'm worried that many of Britain's muslims have no intention of integrating, and many are taught that the society they live in is ungodly and evil. And that its women are immoral and contemptible.

This is not good for a peaceful, democratic, modern, cohesive society.

(Leaving aside for the moment, that many radical muslims, even those born here, want to spread panic by causing explosions. And noting that a female aid worker, walking alone to work yesterday in Kabul, was shot dead by two religious fanatics on motorcycles)
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 03:26 pm
@McTag,
and so it goes on...Gale Williams shot dead in Kabul. A christian wanting only to help poor Afghanis, shot dead by Islamic extremists because she was CHRISTIAN.

Totally beyond contempt. And can you imagine the opposite? A muslim social worker trying to help poor people in Britain shot dead; not for the job she was doing but by Christian fanatics who killed her because she was a Muslim? I dont think so.

Every day we hear the same story. Islamic violence against non muslims.

Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 04:04 pm
@Steve 41oo,
yet more

Guardian wrote:
Mobile phone detonators attached to two car bombs left near a nightclub in the West End of London were called 15 times but the devices failed to explode, a court was told today...

Abdulla is on trial with Mohammed Asha, 28, accused of conspiracy to murder and to cause explosions.


abdulla and mohammed dont sound jewish or christian to me.
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 04:19 pm
@Steve 41oo,
a headline a couple of years back...

Observer wrote:
Memo to EU: we call it Islamic terrorism because it is terror inspired by Islam


if you are getting tired of this, well so am I good night.
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 04:41 pm
@Steve 41oo,
I can play all night. And we can do this forever, if that's what you want.

...though your quote doesn't say much of anything. Of course it's Islamic terrorism, nobody has ever claimed otherwise. That still doesn't equal off of Islam and all of Muslims being evil. That's where we radically differ.

Headline from 26th of September of 2008:

'There Is Absolutely No Reason for Islamophobia'

By Peter Wensierski and Christina Hebel
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,580761,00.html
Der Spiegel

Germany's Muslims are pious and yet more tolerant than most assume, a new study has found. Its authors are urging authorities to draw the country's Muslim children away from Koran schools by offering public religious instruction.

Bertelsmann Stiftung provides an in-depth view of religiosity among Germany's Muslims.
Dr. Martin Rieger of the Bertelman Stiftung thinks Muslim children should have their own religion classes. Rieger was the director of the study "Muslim Religiosity in Germany," which was provided to SPIEGEL ONLINE ahead of its scheduled publication on Friday.

The study reveals that 90 percent of Muslims define themselves as religous. In contrast a separate survey by the nonprofit German think tank found that only 70 percent of the entire population admitted to being religous. "We need to get the younger Muslims out of the Koran schools," Rieger urges, "and offer them professionally taught classes on Islam."

Calls like that are welcome news to Yunus Ulusoy from the Center for Turkish Studies in Essen, which keeps track of the religiosity of Turkish Muslims. It's a demand, Ulusoy says, "that we've been making for decades because, for Muslims, faith is a very important part of their identity." In his opinion, if the school system doesn't pay any attention to this fact, it only hurts the chances of successfully integrating Muslims into German culture.

Even Robert Zollitsch, president of the German Bishops' Conference, the body responsible for the country's Catholic Churches, backs the plan. On Thursday, Zollitsch voiced his support for the call for Islamic religious instruction and the construction of "fitting Muslim houses of worship that are well-integrated into their respective urban plans."


According to Rieger, the majority of Germans only have preconceptions about the Muslims living in Germany. "Most of them know nothing about the Muslim faith," Rieger laments. "There is absolutely no reason for Islamophobia." Germany is home to approximately 3.5 million Muslims, roughly 2 million of whom have Turkish roots.

Rieger adds that the Bertelsmann study is the first comprehensive scholarly analysis of the beliefs of Muslims in Germany and that, previously, there had only been surveys carried out in large metropolitan areas or with individual groups, such as Turks. The report includes figures not only for groups speaking different languages -- such as Turkish, Arabic, Persian and Bosnian -- but also for groups from different religious denominations. The study is based on a survey of 2,000 Muslims over the age of 18.

According to the report, Sunni Muslims living in Germany are religious to an above-average degree; 92 percent identify themselves as being religious. Among Shiites in Germany, that number lies at 90 percent, and it is 77 percent for members of the Alevite community. "Islam in Germany is not a unified block," Rieger says. "It's very multifaceted."


Rieger also finds it "surprising" that religion only has a major influence on the political stance of a small group of Muslims. The study found that only 16 percent of the Muslims surveyed said that their faith had an effect on their political attitudes and that two-thirds of them would say no to having their own Islamic political party.

Riegalso makes a point of stressing the high degree of tolerance shown by Muslims in Germany. Sixty-seven percent said that they agreed that every religion has a "core of truth," and 86 percent said that people should have "an open mind to all religions." "This value is equally high for all of the groups studied," Rieger says, "regardless of gender, age, denomination or ancestry."

The Bertelsmann study also speaks about German Muslims having a "rather pragmatic approach" to Islam. Over half of those surveyed were against the wearing of headscarves, while only 33 percent are for it. "However, these results do not mean that the headscarf will really be worn," says Ulusoy. From what he has learned, it's really more of an issue of "reconciling religiosity with everyday life." For Ulusoy, it's also a sign that Muslims are not sealing themselves off from society.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 11:03 pm
@dagmaraka,

I will concede, dagmar, that liberal muslim voices have been raised against the extremists. We need more of that.

But seemingly the Wahabis, funded in Saudi Arabia, have a lot of influence in British mosques and doubtless elsewhere in Europe. (My information comes from a recent documentary which used undercover reporting and filming)
Too many of the congregations are taught that they are living among the kuffoor, the infidel, and that their duty is to shun us and to kill us.

And a disturbing proportion of them take that literally.
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 09:08 am
@dagmaraka,
dagmaraka wrote:
Of course it's Islamic terrorism, nobody has ever claimed otherwise. That still doesn't equal off of Islam and all of Muslims being evil. That's where we radically differ.
Who is calling Muslims evil? Not me!!! I think Islam is nonsense, that is it makes no sense to me. It can inspire some followers to commit heinous crimes, but thats a long way from condemning the religion as evil. I think its daft, and dangerous at the margins.
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 11:20 am
@Steve 41oo,
what happened to the Truth? this is certainly a different tune from the ones you were whistling before- after all it's all typed up in this thread. this tune i can sort of almost agree with. extremism, any extremism, is dangerous, no debate there...
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 11:26 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:


I will concede, dagmar, that liberal muslim voices have been raised against the extremists. We need more of that.

But seemingly the Wahabis, funded in Saudi Arabia, have a lot of influence in British mosques and doubtless elsewhere in Europe. (My information comes from a recent documentary which used undercover reporting and filming)
Too many of the congregations are taught that they are living among the kuffoor, the infidel, and that their duty is to shun us and to kill us.

And a disturbing proportion of them take that literally.


well, then let's get more of that. it is partially dependent on us, don't you think? hate breeds hate, our only hope of peaceful future is extended hand and open heart towards liberal and progressive Muslims among us. That's what I think. And also that we can all do a little bit of the work. Anyone can complain...but what will we do?
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 01:12 pm
@dagmaraka,

Steve's original point (somewhere, if not on this thread) was that Islam is about the only region which says you should kill people who are not muslim.

I think the Christians did this in Spain in the Middle Ages (convert or die). Maybe it's just a stage they have to get through. Unfortunately, modern explosives are super-effective.
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 03:51 am
@dagmaraka,
dagmaraka wrote:

what happened to the Truth? this is certainly a different tune from the ones you were whistling before- after all it's all typed up in this thread. this tune i can sort of almost agree with. extremism, any extremism, is dangerous, no debate there...
I haven't changed my tune a bit. I've always drawn a distinction between the person, and the ideas the person carries around in their head. There is such a thing as a bad idea, or set of ideas, and I think that set of ideas which makes up the religion we know as Islam is one of them. And I have given several examples of why I think its bad. But that does not make me think muslims are bad, and I certainly dont hate them as people. But I have the right to be critical of Islam, and that right remains despite threats of violence from religious extremists or charges of racism from people who frankly ought to know better.
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 04:32 pm
@Steve 41oo,
i never called you a racist.

... islam and muslims have nothing to do with a race.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2008 01:12 am
@dagmaraka,

That's right. Muslim terrorists from the Middle East give their race a bad name, at least here.

Hi Dag, how are you today? How did the conference go?

Off topic, have you read "God Is Not Great (how religion poisons eveything)" by Christopher Hitchens?
It's an eye-opener.
 

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