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Right Panics Over Giuliani's Big Lead

 
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Mar, 2007 08:50 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
nimh wrote:
Yep, O'Bill, Soz is right of course. I'm talking about Lash asking GreenWitch for her opinion, and GW giving it, and Lash then going after her for not providing the links and evidence. Move the scene to a bar and ask yourself what you'd do.
Beyond talking past each other, we don't disagree. You responded to me right after I quoted plainoldme... so naturally, I thought you were responding to that. More often than not, in a bar I'll respond with, "oh". :wink:

Night Soz.


Ha! This reminds me of the time when Asherman posted after Set, but was talking about someone else, and confusion reigned supreme. It's all just so confusing sometimes :wink:
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Mar, 2007 12:59 pm
nimh wrote:
Lash wrote:
Meanwhile, you made a bunch of assumptions yourself (about the book, for example) that were misjudged, and I dont see you acknowledging that or going back on 'em..
WTF? What assumptions did I make?

- That Kerik / the Kerik case "was a pea" compared to Marc Rich / the Rich case, for one.
This is not an assertion or an assumption, but an opinion re which is more severe. It's not something that can be proven or disproven. Unlike some of GW's descriptions of actions Rudy is alleged to have taken. You are wrong.

This is the man you want to be President - wouldnt you want to come back on the assumption that this is a comparatively pea-like case?
It's opinion.
- That "America's Mayor: The Hidden History of Rudy Giuliani's New York - Robert Polner" "sounds like a tabloid" - thats you making an assumption about its worth - though the one copy/paste into Google could have told you you were wrong.
It DOES sound like a tabloid. YOU are the one who made assumptions.
Lash wrote:
But I mean, this is what it comes down to basically, isnt it? If someone was posting here that my preferred candidate had some serious problem that could still majorly eff his run up, I would want to know. If I'm given the names of the people involved, the name of a book about it, links to the NYT news archive about it, or such more, I would want to paste that info into Google with one sweep of the finger, click that link, and find out! Instead, we seem to encounter this, "well I'm not gonna look any of this up until I deem you to have given me a direct enough link". Might as well just say, "I prefer to not know," no?
Make assertion = prove or fold.

Would it make any difference re your followup, really? On the other thread, where the subject is how Giuliani treated his wife, you're still asserting that 'people shouldnt believe everything they read in the tabloids' - even though, there, people have, repetitively and extensively, given you and Fox the links to news archives from mainstream papers reporting about all that stuff. Its all a matter of public record, theres video, everything. All you'd need to do to doublecheck the assertions is click the link, Google it up.
The one who makes the assertion will google or fold. As always.
But apparently, you didnt deign any of that worth doing, and prefer to imply that it must all be tabloid fiction anyway. So why pretend that you'd really, really want GW to give you links of her own as well? Its not like giving you links or not giving you links seems to make any difference to how you react.
Do you automatically believe everything sourced? You're sort of nutting up a bit, nimh. A little too aggressive trying to make special rules of engagement for GW. I think it's ridiculous to try and say I "went after" her, as well. I was never "after" her. She made some pretty damning allegations about Rudy without sourcing. I didn't realize you would go to the lengths to change all interaction rules of the site to try to win one argument with me. Save your breath. Even members that like you know you are dead wrong.
Seriously, all this smacks like major diversion / denial. You asked GW for an opinion, you got it.

I don't mind her opinion. However, as you well know, it is interspersed with assertions that I question as factual. I merely asked her to produce the source of her allegations. If she has accepted them for fact--and is attempting to pass them off as fact--she should be able to produce some evidence-- I wasn't arguing with her--as any balanced reading of my posts assuredly proves.

You didnt like it.

I already knew she had a negative opinion of him. I wanted to know if it was based on fact. Not a novel progression of events at A2K.

In the meantime, other people have given you links on a bunch of the things GW mentioned. You didnt want to look into them.
I think you should stop short of telling people what they want/ed to do. Your level of assumption is weirder than anything that occurred in this exchange.

Instead, you get into a tizzy about how GW didnt also add links.

I was in no tizzy. YOU-- however-- certainly are. What's that about? I wonder if you see how weird and self-contradictory you are here.

I research on my own, in my time. I don't do other's work for them. If GW is exempt from sourcing her facts, so is everyone else. Examine yourself.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Mar, 2007 01:00 pm
What BOOK did you say I've made assumptions about, nimh?
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Mar, 2007 01:07 pm
nimh wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
how on earth could Nimh, of all people, be backing that logic or lack thereof.

OK Bill - imagine you sitting in a bar. Man comes up to you and starts saying, "do you know that the mayor is an alcoholic crook?" You like the mayor, so you'll say, "yeah? back that up will ya?"

OK, now imagine sitting in a bar, conversation is about the mayor, and you turn to the girl next to you and say, "why, what do you think about the mayor? whats your take?" An she says, "well I think he's a no-good egoist prick who got himself in too much shady stuff". Well, you asked. You'll probably ask her why she thinks so, but, after asking her for her opinion in the first place, would you then really lambast her for giving it without providing enough links and data? Somehow I doubt it..

Real life check: same here. If people here come to make an argument, I expect them to buttress it. But if I ask someone what she thinks about something, I aint then gonna get on her ass for not including point-by-point proof for what she's saying. I asked what she thought, I know that what I'm going to get is an opinion.


Show where I lambasted her or got on her ass.

You know what that looks like and it did not occur here.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Mar, 2007 01:11 pm
Lash, to GW, wrote wrote:


You're certainly entitled to your opinion-- If you have links to verify any of this, I'd appreciate it.

Again. I'd be interested to see the links.

GW wrote:

Rudy's sex life is far more interesting than Clinton could ever hope for. His various divorces and such do make for interesting gossip - doesn't bother me, but he is running on the No Sex Please, We're Republicans ticket.


He most definitely is not running on any such thing.

Oh well. Set the standards. I can have fun on any level we choose, ladies and gentlemen... Laughing


Is this a lambasting???

I'll tell you what's getting tiresome... Evil or Very Mad
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Mar, 2007 04:42 pm
Lash wrote:
What BOOK did you say I've made assumptions about, nimh?


<points down>

nimh wrote:
Lash wrote:
GreenWitch wrote:
I suggest reading America's Mayor: The Hidden History of Rudy Giuliani's New York - Robert Polner. I think it's an honest assessment of the Giuliani years and makes for a good telling of history.

Sounds like a tabloid. I thought liberals were above that... <shakes head> I guess when it suits them.

Hardly a tabloid.

"Edited by Robert Polner, who covered city hall for Newsday during much of Giuliani's administration, America's Mayor collects the original essays and reporting of some of New York's best writers, including Pulitzer Prize winner Jim Dwyer, Tom Robbins, Jimmy Breslin, Kevin Baker, Luc Sante, LynNell Hancock, and others."

As you could have found out through a simple Google search

What is with this "Oh you're giving me information that could be unbenefitial to my preferred candidate, I'd better just reject it out of hand as something it isnt, rather than have to actually Google it up and find out I might have to take it seriously"? Its, like, positively Foxfyre-esque.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2007 06:19 am
I hope everyone has read the New York piece that bethie noted elsewhere... http://nymag.com/news/features/28517/

Anyone honest will acknowledge that Giuliani enters this picture only because of 9/11. Who knows even the name of the Mayor of Los Angeles or Chicago or Dallas or Seattle presently, not to mention six years ago?

Anyone honest will acknowledge that 9/11 demonstrated that Giuliani managed a civic emergency as well as any other examples we can think of and far better than most we can think of.

But from where does the ubiquitous adjective "heroic" come? And does it make any sense at all?

We don't normally apply the term "heroic" to demonstrations of competence, even in large emergencies, unless there is also some significant courage in the face of personal risk involved. That doesn't apply here. Or if it does, it applies to thousands working at the scene, many at far more personal risk than the mayor. Brownie, of Fema fame, isn't castigated for lack of heroism, just a lack of competence.

Giuliani's response at the time was contrasted with that of Bush, favorably for Giuliani and unfavorably for Bush. Dems pushed that equation, of course, and so did the media for valid reasons (competence IS important in civic leaders) and arguably less valid reasons (dems - political advantage, media - gripping narrative/viewers/ad dollars).

I think it is this last bit, the gripping narrative, that generated the "heroic" notion for a lot of Americans. Bush tried to get some of it himself (standing on the pile of rubble and dead people rather like it was a mastodon he'd just brought down single-handedly, bellowing into a bullhorn and almost thumping his chest with the "we'll get them" stuff). If the Giuliani campaign continues, we'll be watching over and over any footage of Rudy striding and pushing away dust and debris as if his intention alone might split the Red Sea.

This is all visceral stuff. It's not terribly rational at all. It's deeply tied in with American nationalism. Each year, about the same number of people die in their bathtubs as died on that day.

The blow was to national ego. And without question, that blow was and is felt more deeply by those Americans within whom serious and militant nationalism flows vigorously.

One can make a sensible argument that almost everything the Bush administration has done since then has been an attempt to salve that wound...to repair the damaged nationalist pride. And one can sensibly argue that almost everything they've attempted has failed, and made the wound and the emasculation even worse.

What a time, for those serious American nationalist types to pray for a hero of the authoritarian and militarist sort. The solution for such folks is quite obvious... get bigger weapons and hit harder and really clear out the internal defeatist riff-raff. America on top. Whatever it takes. Or it isn't America, just a limp-dicked place like France.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2007 06:26 am
blatham wrote:
Anyone honest will acknowledge that 9/11 demonstrated that Giuliani managed a civic emergency as well as any other examples we can think of and far better than most we can think of.


What Giuliani was doing was rising to the occasion.................and doing it well. In other words, he was doing his job. Too bad we can't say that for a lot of other elected officials.

It is really a sad commentary on the state of affairs where incompetence is the norm, and a person who does his job well becomes a superstar.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2007 07:25 am
hi phoenix. Nice to see you.

This is an amazing city and it has a long history of unique, colorful, and competent (or not) individuals who have faced the unique and serious dilemmas of administering a city this big and this diverse. I tip my hat to the bugger for his response to that crisis and for his facing/addressing the crime problems earlier. But I think his arrogance and authoritarian style of dealing with others is exactly what will likely drive america even further into stupid decisions/directions.

Wonderful piece here, and related...
Quote:
Will We Suffer from the Iraq Syndrome?
Beware of the Boomerang
By Ira Chernus

The Iraq syndrome is headed our way. Perhaps it's already here.
http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=170608
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2007 11:37 am
This title:

America's Mayor: The Hidden History of Rudy Giuliani's New York

sounds like a ******* tabloid.

No matter how you slice it.

That's not an assumption it's an OPINION.

Get some Midol. I don't mind a good argument now and then if it will help you in some way--but for Bob's sake, find one that means something.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2007 01:42 pm
Lash wrote:
Get some Midol. I don't mind a good argument now and then if it will help you in some way--but for Bob's sake, find one that means something.

Yeah yeah yeah.

Look - the fact is that

  1. You asked GW her opinion about Giuliani;

  2. She gave it;

  3. You then chided her for not giving links and sources to buttress her take;

  4. She did however give a source, which she said gave "an honest assessment of the Giuliani years and makes for a good telling of [the] history";

  5. However, you declined to look anything up about this book, rejecting it out of hand as something that "sounds like a tabloid";

  6. Moreover, you continued on that assumption to note that you "thought liberals were above that", but that "you guess when it suits them", liberals are apparently willing to roll with that kind of thing;

  7. Even though simply copy/pasting the title into google would have shown you that it was actually a serious source;

  8. Meanwhile, in the other thread's discussion of Giuliani's various mishaps, you also kept referring to how you'd "suggest people not believe everything they hear in the tabloids";

  9. Even though the things that had been mentioned are a matter of public record, as various posters already pointed out, and you could have used any of the links to regular media coverage you were given to find out.

Seriously, you might has well have posted, "I prefer to not know".

These conversations are useless...

<off to post something about Uzbekistan>
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2007 02:01 pm
Lash wrote:
This title:

America's Mayor: The Hidden History of Rudy Giuliani's New York

sounds like a **** tabloid.

No matter how you slice it.

That's not an assumption it's an OPINION.


what it sounds like doesn't matter - what it contains does.

It's worth doing the research sometimes.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2007 02:05 pm
ehBeth--

I do research.

Not for other people, though.

I've started looking into it.

Until I've finished, there is one thing you CAN count on, though. If I make an assertion about it--I'll either source it--or admit I can't prove it. As expected.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2007 02:09 pm
You're the one considering voting for Mr. Giuliani at some point in the future. In your position I'd be trying to read as much as I could, pro and con, about my candidate of interest.

I did quite a bit of reading about Mr. Giuliani just about 2 years ago. It was worth poking around (there wasn't as much in print at that time - he was kinda out of favour).
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2007 02:21 pm
ehBeth wrote:
You're the one considering voting for Mr. Giuliani at some point in the future. In your position I'd be trying to read as much as I could, pro and con, about my candidate of interest.

What makes you think I'm not?

I did quite a bit of reading about Mr. Giuliani just about 2 years ago. It was worth poking around (there wasn't as much in print at that time - he was kinda out of favour).

I remember.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2007 02:29 pm
nimh wrote:
Lash wrote:
Get some Midol. I don't mind a good argument now and then if it will help you in some way--but for Bob's sake, find one that means something.

Yeah yeah yeah.

Look - the fact is that

  1. You asked GW her opinion about Giuliani;

  2. She gave it;

  3. You then chided her for not giving links and sources to buttress her take;
    Wrong. I extracted the "facts" she based her opinion on--and asked her POLITELY where she came upon that information. If I remember correctly, she pre-emptively refused to supply these. There was nothing at all wrong with asking her where she got her information. To say there is is nuts. You should admit it. You're intentionally mischaracterizing me and I resent it.
  4. She did however give a source, which she said gave "an honest assessment of the Giuliani years and makes for a good telling of [the] history";
    I do plan to look into the pedigree of that book (and did when she brought it up)--but not in that instant--Someone else's refusal to produce what they should doesn't propel me into action. It DOES sound like a Kitty Kelley hatchet job. It probably is--but that remains to be seen. I can give titles of pro-Rudy books that spin him to be the second coming. I don't immediately accept or reject "books" as sources. I'd have to read the whole damn thing and check those sources... I thought she may have an article from a reputable source--especially to back up her claim that Rudy was involved in some underhanded scheme to throw less wealthy renters into the street...
  5. However, you declined to look anything up about this book, rejecting it out of hand as something that "sounds like a tabloid";
    I wasn't prepared to stop everything to read a bio. Hyperreaction from you. I am looking into the claims. I certainly can't ignore them.
  6. Moreover, you continued on that assumption to note that you "thought liberals were above that", but that "you guess when it suits them", liberals are apparently willing to roll with that kind of thing;
    And?
  7. Even though simply copy/pasting the title into google would have shown you that it was actually a serious source;
    Our ideas of serious sources seem much more different than I'd thought.
  8. Meanwhile, in the other thread's discussion of Giuliani's various mishaps, you also kept referring to how you'd "suggest people not believe everything they hear in the tabloids";
    You have a problem with that statement? "People" were acting as though they had the inside scoop re what occurred in the Giuliani's marriage. What do you say to that?
  9. Even though the things that had been mentioned are a matter of public record, as various posters already pointed out, and you could have used any of the links to regular media coverage you were given to find out.
    I think I've picked up on the fact that you would like to schedule the timing of my research.

Seriously, you might has well have posted, "I prefer to not know".
You don't mind GW languishing in that realm. You may want to talk to her. I'm sure you're upset about her lacksidaisical claim support. I, on the other hand, DO prefer to know--and will know. And, you?
These conversations are useless...
Then mind your own business.
<off to post something about Uzbekistan>
Please source it.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2007 03:19 pm
New Polling--could spell "oops" for the Rude-ster...

But, maybe not.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2007 03:29 pm
This is interesting:

Quote:
Still, most registered Republicans are not familiar with Giuliani's positions on key social issues: 34 percent of all Republican voters polled and 38 percent of social conservatives are aware he is pro-choice on abortion. And 51 percent of all Republican voters and 49 percent of social conservatives aren't sure where he stands on the issue. On gun control, just 17 percent of all Republican voters polled and 19 percent of social conservatives are aware he's a supporter of gun control. Sixty-seven percent of Republican voters polled (66% of social conservatives) aren't sure of his stand. And 16 percent of all Republican voters polled and 15 percent of social conservatives are aware that Giuliani opposes a constitutional amendment that would ban same-sex marriage; (70% overall and 72% of social conservatives aren't aware of his position).


I really think that the more people learn about him, the more that support will fall away.

Although I'm not sure who it would go to -- McCain? Romney?

Obama? :-D

The article does go on to say,

Quote:
When asked about whether Giuliani's views on these same issues would be enough to prevent them from supporting him, few registered Republicans voters said it would. When told Giuliani supports Roe v. Wade, 29 percent of all Republican voters polled and 40 percent of social conservatives say it would make them less likely to support him. On Giuliani's opposition to an amendment that bans same-sex marriage, 25 percent of all Republican voters polled and 32 percent of social conservatives say that would make them less likely to support him. And on Giuliani's support of new laws requiring all gun owners in the U.S. to be licensed, 20 percent of all Republican voters polled and 22 percent of social conservatives say it would make them less likely to support him.


I'm not sure of the writer's use of "few" there, though. 40% of social conservatives said that Giuliani's support of Roe vs. Wade would make them less likely to support him! That seems sizeable to me.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2007 03:37 pm
Yes. I had been thinking about how much the general public kew about him--and figured there were some who didn't have all the info.

He'll lose some. But, his trajectory may be able to take it.

We'll see.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2007 05:04 pm
The Giuliani interface with the public/press is tightly controlled, as was the case with Bush. You aren't going to see Rudy up at the podium with some New Yorkers giving him raspberries. Dissidence won't be part of the presentation...just sunny skies and everyone clapping.

Very, very unfortunately for us, these Giuliani 'negatives' in relation to the conservative values base will mandate that the 9/11 thing AND the evil Muslim thing will be a non-stop avalanche for the next two years. Promotion of fear and promotion of hero to save everyone.

This is how you make a population really really stupid.
0 Replies
 
 

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