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NRA trains members to attack enemies without mercy

 
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Feb, 2007 02:33 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
maporsche wrote:
Bill, all good points, but I don't think anyone will try to answer your questions.
I see you are right.

Actually, Steve 41oo addressed one of the points that you made, but you never responded.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Feb, 2007 02:36 pm
farmerman wrote:
AHA, probably the NRA and noodge realized that stepping on ones amendment rights isnt an ok thing to do in front of all these people watching.


Go to Nuge's website and read some of the responses. There's an awful lot of folks over there that are pretty pissed at Zumbo and giving Nuge grief for forgiving him. It's a calculated risk for Ted, as Zumbo is an old friend who screwed up big time. It will likely cost Nugent the president's seat on the NRA board, though he deserves it more than anyone. It remains to be seen what the reaction of the NRA membership on the whole is, rather than the brash partisans who showed up last week.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Feb, 2007 02:49 pm
cjhsa wrote:
farmerman wrote:
AHA, probably the NRA and noodge realized that stepping on ones amendment rights isnt an ok thing to do in front of all these people watching.


Go to Nuge's website and read some of the responses. There's an awful lot of folks over there that are pretty pissed at Zumbo and giving Nuge grief for forgiving him. It's a calculated risk for Ted, as Zumbo is an old friend who screwed up big time. It will likely cost Nugent the president's seat on the NRA board, though he deserves it more than anyone. It remains to be seen what the reaction of the NRA membership on the whole is, rather than the brash partisans who showed up last week.


The real point of this story is the idiocy of NRA members for attacking someone in their organization who has far more to add, then a few throwaway comments.

Zumbo even apologized and said he went a little too far...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Feb, 2007 02:54 pm
Lesson here: never question the fundamental precepts of a cult.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Feb, 2007 03:49 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
maporsche wrote:
Bill, all good points, but I don't think anyone will try to answer your questions.
I see you are right.

Actually, Steve 41oo addressed one of the points that you made, but you never responded.
Steve in no way addressed any question I asked. Neither has anyone else (other than maporsche). Steve's inane comment was hardly worth responding to. The question remains: How do you reasonably define "Assault Rifle"?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Feb, 2007 03:51 pm
Quote:

Go to Nuge's website and read some of the responses. There's an awful lot of folks over there that are pretty pissed at Zumbo and giving Nuge grief for forgiving him. It's a calculated risk for Ted, as Zumbo is an old friend who screwed up big time
Im not going to a website peopled by the zealots. Anyway, since when is saying the truth "screwing up"?
Zumbo is an old man who , until this moment was a poster boy for the NRA, so quickly they turn on their own kind if the mark isnt towed.


HE must be assimilated.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Feb, 2007 04:05 pm
Google is an amazing thing..

Quote:


Q: What is the difference between semi-automatic hunting rifles and semi-automatic assault weapons?

A: Sporting rifles and assault weapons are two distinct classes of firearms. While semi-automatic hunting rifles are designed to be fired from the shoulder and depend upon the accuracy of a precisely aimed projectile, semi-automatic assault weapons are designed to maximize lethal effects through a rapid rate of fire. Assault weapons are designed to be spray-fired from the hip, and because of their design, a shooter can maintain control of the weapon even while firing many rounds in rapid succession.

Opponents of the ban argue that such weapons only "look scary." However, because they were designed for military purposes, assault weapons are equipped with combat hardware, such as silencers, folding stocks and bayonets, which are not found on sporting guns. Assault weapons are also designed for rapid-fire and many come equipped with large ammunition magazines allowing 50 more bullets to be fired without reloading. So there is a good reason why these features on high-powered weapons should frighten the public.

Assault weapons are commonly equipped with some or all of the following combat features:

* A large-capacity ammunition magazine, enabling the shooter to continuously fire dozens of rounds without reloading. Standard hunting rifles are usually equipped with no more than 3 or 4-shot magazines.
* A folding stock on a rifle or shotgun, which sacrifices accuracy for concealability and for mobility in close combat.
* A pistol grip on a rifle or shotgun, which facilitates firing from the hip, allowing the shooter to spray-fire the weapon. A pistol grip also helps the shooter stabilize the firearm during rapid fire and makes it easier to shoot assault rifles one-handed.
* A barrel shroud, which is designed to cool the barrel so the firearm can shoot many rounds in rapid succession without overheating. It also allows the shooter to grasp the barrel area to stabilize the weapon, without incurring serious burns, during rapid fire.
* A threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor, which serves no useful sporting purpose. The flash suppressor allows the shooter to remain concealed when shooting at night, an advantage in combat but unnecessary for hunting or sporting purposes. In addition, the flash suppressor is useful for providing stability during rapid fire, helping the shooter maintain control of the firearm.
* A threaded barrel designed to accommodate a silencer, which is useful to assassins but clearly has no purpose for sportsmen. Silencers are illegal so there is no legitimate purpose for making it possible to put a silencer on a weapon.
* A barrel mount designed to accommodate a bayonet, which obviously serves no sporting purpose.
source

You could also look at the law itself to get the definitions.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Feb, 2007 04:14 pm
Thomas, i would consider any restriction by Congress of the right of participation in the reserve militia (see Dick Act, 1903) to be an infringement of the right to keep and bear arms. As far as there is any evidence available, the First Congress, which framed that amendment (the fourth amendment proposed, the second amendment ratified), did not any particular weapon or class of weapons in mind. Therefore, O'Bill's silly rant about what is or is not an assault rifle is a non-sequitur. Basically, the Congress has always addressed the issue of what arms constitute reasonable arms for the militia by fulfilling their powers under Article One, Section 8 by arming the militia at Congressional expense. In 1808, that expense was about a quarter of a million dollars, and that figure only reached about $400,000 by the time of the Spanish Ware, 90 years later. After he passage of the Dick Act, which essentially coopted the militia from state controll to Federal control, the Congress spent more than $50,000,000 to arm the militia (i.e., the Army National Guard) by the time the United States entered the Great War against Germany.

Neither the Congress nor the Federal courts have actually addressed the issue of what constitute the appropriate arms of the reserve militia, which was inferentially created by the passage of the Dick Act. The sole exception was 1939's United States versus Miller, in which the Supremes said that they did not know sawed-off shotguns to be weapons of the militia, a reasonable statement at that time, whether with regard to the Army National Guard or the "reserve militia."

At all events: It is in the first place silly to assert that the intent of the IInd Amendment were anything other than a reasonable means of assuring no exclusive enrollment in the militia, because there is no other evidence to reasonably suggest that it ever had anything to do with the nature or class of weapons with which Congress would arm the militia, as the Constitution enjoins them to do; and in the second, the entire theme of this thread is silly, since it is not necessary to use military style weapons, whether fully-automatic or not, to hunt game animals. But on the theme of the thread, there can be little doubt that if you piss of the crackpots whom the NRA regularly exploit, you are going to be publicly and viciously attacked.

*******************************************

Thomas' comment that the colonists were in a state of revolt in 1776 in order to assure their rights as Englishmen is not based on any historical authority. Basically, the colonists were asserting rights as Englishmen which had never been canvassed in Parliament, as there had never before been an imperial England. The colonists claimed, on no precedential basis, that they were free to reject any Parliamentary act which did not deal with the imperial relationship because they were not represented in Parliament, and the Parliament had responded that the colonists were virtually represented in Parliament, and could not object to Parliamentary acts on the basis of a lack of representation. Of course, after the repeal of the Stamp Act, Parliament had passed the Declaratory Act, in which they asserted their right to legislate for the colonies in any and all matters.

In 1776, neither side was appealing to existing or precedential bases for their legal arguments.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Feb, 2007 04:18 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
The question remains: How do you reasonably define "Assault Rifle"?

Let's start with the definition in the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994. (It has since been repealed.) You tell me what's unreasonable about it.
    (30) The term `semiautomatic assault weapon' means-- `(A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as-- `(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models); `(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; `(iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70); `(iv) Colt AR-15; `(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC; `(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12; `(vii) Steyr AUG; `(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and `(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12; `(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of-- `(i) a folding or telescoping stock; `(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; `(iii) a bayonet mount; `(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and `(v) a grenade launcher; `(C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of-- `(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip; `(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer; `(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned; `(iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and `(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and `(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of-- `(i) a folding or telescoping stock; `(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; `(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and `(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.'.

Some formating lost -- sorry.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Feb, 2007 04:40 pm
Setanta wrote:
Basically, the colonists were asserting rights as Englishmen which had never been canvassed in Parliament, as there had never before been an imperial England. The colonists claimed, on no precedential basis, that they were free to reject any Parliamentary act which did not deal with the imperial relationship because they were not represented in Parliament,

I don't know that this is true. But it's beside my point, so I'll go with your facts. My point is that the founders had strong beliefs about human rights that they held rightly or wrongly. In particular, they believed that as Englishmen, they had absolute individual rights that they were fighting for in 1776, that they were writing a constitution to protect in 1787, and that they passed a Bill of Rights to protect in 1791. Even if the colonists' belief in Blackstone, chapter 5 had been a collective hallucination, conceived on an LSD trip during an after-convention party, they would still have enshrined it in the Bill of Rights. Consequently, the hallucination of absolute individual rights should still guide jurists who interpret the Bill of Rights today.

That, of course, is only my opinion.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Feb, 2007 05:19 pm
Thomas wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
The question remains: How do you reasonably define "Assault Rifle"?

Let's start with the definition in the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994. (It has since been repealed.) You tell me what's unreasonable about it.
    (30) The term `semiautomatic assault weapon' means-- `(A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as-- `(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models); `(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; `(iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70); `(iv) Colt AR-15; `(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC; `(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12; `(vii) Steyr AUG; `(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and `(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12; `(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of-- `(i) a folding or telescoping stock; `(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; `(iii) a bayonet mount; `(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and `(v) a grenade launcher; `(C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of-- `(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip; `(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer; `(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned; `(iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and `(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and `(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of-- `(i) a folding or telescoping stock; `(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; `(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and `(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.'.

Some formating lost -- sorry.



Nothing is 'unreasonable' about it, except that all it does is define what accessories make a rifle considered an 'assult rifle'. The actual mechanics of the rifle are unchanged, but if you have a bayonet attached to the end, it's an assult rifle. If you have a 10 round magazine it's not an assult rifle, but if you have a 12 round magazine it is. I can understand the grenade launcher definition, it's pretty specific. But the others are just simply laughable.

10 round mag = ok
12 round mag = BAD = just as lethal

Rifle w/o knife = ok
Rifle w/ knife = BAD = just a lethal

Rifle with normal stock = ok
Rifle with folding/telo stock = BAD = just as lethal


The laughable part is that the gun itself is not the issue, but apparently it's the accessories attached to the gun.
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Feb, 2007 05:39 pm
cjhsa wrote:
There's an awful lot of folks over there that are pretty pissed at Zumbo and giving Nuge grief for forgiving him.....It remains to be seen what the reaction of the NRA membership on the whole is, rather than the brash partisans who showed up last week.


Perish the thought! Brash partisans must NEVER be allowed to control the NRA! Exclamation
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Feb, 2007 05:45 pm
Thomas wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Basically, the colonists, etc., etc. . . .


I don't know that this is true. But it's beside my point, so I'll go with your facts. My point is that the founders had strong beliefs about human rights that they held rightly or wrongly. In particular, they believed that as Englishmen, they had absolute individual rights that they were fighting for in 1776, that they were writing a constitution to protect in 1787, and that they passed a Bill of Rights to protect in 1791. Even if the colonists' belief in Blackstone, chapter 5 had been a collective hallucination, conceived on an LSD trip during an after-convention party, they would still have enshrined it in the Bill of Rights. Consequently, the hallucination of absolute individual rights should still guide jurists who interpret the Bill of Rights today.

That, of course, is only my opinion.


Your references to Blackstone are meaningless, and that was my point. The Declaration of Independence struck out into new ground in terms of the conception of the rights of Englishmen. I won't go into the history of the Parliament, but simply note that all the "rights of Englishmen" had accreted over time, and were almost exclusively inferential, based partly upon Parliamentary act, but more certainly through judicial precedent.

The concept of virtual representation as alleged by Parliament in 1765 was not as absurd to the minds of Englishmen as it would seem to us. Prior to the 1832 Reform bill, not three in a hundred Englishmen had the franchise, and it was seen as reasonable that one was "virtually represented" by those with whom one assumed one shared a community of interests, who were directly represented in Parliament.

The colonists were directly represented in varying degrees, but to an extent which was unknown anywhere else in the world in 1765. John Winthrop, as Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Company, had in 1630 extended the franchise to any adult male in good standing in his congregation. The same applied in Connecticutt, settled from Massachusetts. Rhode Island enfranchised all adult males, and including Indians and free Blacks who chose to vote, mostly in defiance of Massachusetts. In Virginia, the Virginia Company of the very early 1600s had been made up of men who considered themselves gentlemen, and therefore entitled to vote, and those who might have been their servants in England, but without whom they could not have survived. The original House of Burgesses enfranchised all adult, white males. Pennsylvania enfranchised all adult, white males who were not convicts or distrained for debt.

Never in the history of England has there been such a broad franchise, and never in the history of England had the men of a community had such a degree of control of their own affairs. Magna Carta mostly deals with rights in property, but is most famous for granting the right of habeas corpus, the right of freedom from search and seizure, and of trial by a jury of one's peers--but peers is the operative word, it applied to members of the baronage and peerage who alleged abuses by the Plantagenets. Those rights were not only never codified by Parliament for all men, the Agreement of the People of 1649 had been beaten down by the Puritan Major Generals who rounded up the Agitators and hunted down the Levelers.

The Bill of Rights codified the rights of citizens as they had never before been codified for Englishmen--pace Blackstone. You refer to Blackstone, but his work was only published at the time of the Stamp Act Congress. It is absurd to suggest that Americans were responding to his commentaries when they decided what rights they believed they were entitled to exercise. I suggest that you might read Letters from a Farmer in Pennsylvania by John Dickinson, for a better feel of the arguments which were percolating in America between 1765 and 1776.

When the rights enshrined in the Bill of Rights were asserted, many of them were only newly asserted. Many were reactive to Acts of Parliament which the Americans had found odious--the right peacably to assemble was in direct contradiction of the Riot Act. The prohibition on quartering was in direct contradiction of the Quartering Act.

It nothing short of absurd to refer to Blackstone, other than as a coincidence to the extent that Blackstone took notice of rights to which the colonist had already appealed when he began to publish his commentaries.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Feb, 2007 05:50 pm
Setanta wrote:
As far as there is any evidence available, the First Congress, which framed that amendment (the fourth amendment proposed, the second amendment ratified), did not any particular weapon or class of weapons in mind. Therefore, O'Bill's silly rant about what is or is not an assault rifle is a non-sequitur.
My question doesn't in anyway contradict the previous sentence nor your point, nor have anything to do with it. Therefore, you appear to not know the definition of non-sequitur, because you just offered one.

Parados; your list amounts to accessories that fit hunting rifles and 'assault rifle's' alike.

Thomas, that actually makes some sense, insofar as it limits conversions rather than pretending the gun itself is any different. What strikes me as unreasonable is that other sections ignore the Fact that Kalashnikov-type weapons could be outfitted to meet the restrictions as easily as a standard Deer Rifle... and ultimately would remain less potent. Scary looking appears to be the point.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Feb, 2007 06:18 pm
No one has shown that Congress may not prohibit any class of weapons, nor is it constrained in its power to arm the militia. Therefore, it may define an assault rifle however it chooses, without consulting O'Bill for his sense of what the term does or ought to mean. The relevant legislation defines the term, and therefore O'Bill's silly question is a non-sequitur.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Feb, 2007 06:36 pm
Laughing I don't recall saying Congress didn't have the power. I was asking for a reasonable definition of "assault rifle". You've imagined a connection, where none exists. Get a grip. Laughing
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Feb, 2007 06:39 pm
kelticwizard wrote:
cjhsa wrote:
There's an awful lot of folks over there that are pretty pissed at Zumbo and giving Nuge grief for forgiving him.....It remains to be seen what the reaction of the NRA membership on the whole is, rather than the brash partisans who showed up last week.


Perish the thought! Brash partisans must NEVER be allowed to control the NRA! Exclamation


Well, there's hunters and gun owners and concerned citizens and then there's "You just cost me my livelyhood you dumbass I hope you shoot yourself and rot in hell" kind of partisans.

Personally I'd never heard of Zumbo the dumbo before this happened.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Feb, 2007 06:39 pm
I've got a grip. Here, wipe your nose, the snot is pouring out.

It doesn't matter what the "definition" of assault rifle is or ought to be. However Congress chooses to define the term is conclusive. You anf Maporche had a little mutual admiration club going there about no one being willing to define the term. But it is a non-sequitur, in that Congress has defined the term to its own satisfaction, and no one else's definition or objections matter.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Feb, 2007 07:14 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:


Parados; your list amounts to accessories that fit hunting rifles and 'assault rifle's' alike.
Your hunting rifle has a screw end on its barrel for a silencer? Your hunting rifle has a folding stock? Your hunting rifle has a protruding pistol grip? Your hunting rifle has a bayonet attachment? Please inform us what the make and model of your "hunting" rifle is. By the way, my list is the same one Thomas posted which suddenly "makes some sense."
Quote:

Thomas, that actually makes some sense, insofar as it limits conversions rather than pretending the gun itself is any different. What strikes me as unreasonable is that other sections ignore the Fact that Kalashnikov-type weapons could be outfitted to meet the restrictions as easily as a standard Deer Rifle... and ultimately would remain less potent. Scary looking appears to be the point.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Feb, 2007 07:21 pm
maporsche wrote:


Nothing is 'unreasonable' about it, except that all it does is define what accessories make a rifle considered an 'assult rifle'. The actual mechanics of the rifle are unchanged, but if you have a bayonet attached to the end, it's an assult rifle. If you have a 10 round magazine it's not an assult rifle, but if you have a 12 round magazine it is. I can understand the grenade launcher definition, it's pretty specific. But the others are just simply laughable.

10 round mag = ok
12 round mag = BAD = just as lethal

Rifle w/o knife = ok
Rifle w/ knife = BAD = just a lethal

Rifle with normal stock = ok
Rifle with folding/telo stock = BAD = just as lethal


The laughable part is that the gun itself is not the issue, but apparently it's the accessories attached to the gun.

I didn't realize the stock of a rifle was an accessory. or it's weight, or its barrel, or.....
0 Replies
 
 

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