Is This a Racist Flag?

Setanta wrote:

The simple message which the United States flag conveys (or intends to convey) is that there is a union of states which was founded on the principle (alleged to be self-evident) that all men are created equal, and that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, among which are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Is that the same message that is conveyed by the protester who burns the US flag on the courthouse steps?

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Nope. However since our posts crossed, let me repeat, briefly, that in the 60s, for example the flag was also linked very explicitly by very many people on both sides of the issue, to support of the war in Vietnam, People flew it and put decals on their cars to support the war. That was an explicit link. It was also linked to centuries of unwillingness to grant full rights to black citizens of the US.

You can't say the US flag has meant only one thing in every case.

Same with the Confederat flag. However its overwhelming use, during the Civil War, and during the century and a half afterward, has been as a symbol of oppression and denial of rights. As you can see from the results of cj's poll, 2/3 of the pollees (is that a word?) feel that way. You may not. Your fellow a2kers overwhelmingly disagree with you.

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You'd have to ask the protester what message it is that he or she attempts to convey. If your point it that not everyone agrees with what the flag of the United States is intended to signify, then i'm happy to stipulate that point. As regards the "stars and bars," i'd be happy to stipulate that not everyone who displays it intends to symbolize a racist institution. However, it would be foolish to ignore that to most people (it seems, at least), that flag symbolizes racism. So, is the flag racist? No, not necessarily. Is it a racist symbol? I would answer that it is, even if not everyone who uses it intends a racist message.

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username wrote:

joe from Chicago apparently trying to refute the fact that flags can symbolize something...

Quite the contrary. I think flags can symbolize a whole lot of things. In fact, I don't think flags can really do much else. But, as you point out, the context provides much of the message that a flag conveys. On its own, a flag has no intent. Any message that the flag bears is directly related to the circumstances in which it is displayed and the intent of those who display it.

For instance:

[b][url=http://www.boston.com/news/local/maine/articles/2006/07/14/confederate_flag_put_on_display_at_maine_state_museum/]Confederate flag put on display at Maine State Museum[/url][/b] AUGUSTA, Maine --A Confederate flag from the Civil War that was brought to Maine by a Union drummer boy has been put on display at the Maine State Museum. The small handmade flag is the only Confederate flag in the state's collection of 112 Civil War banners, said museum curator Laurie LaBar. It is important because it is a rare example of a personal "trophy" that was brought home from war, she said.
Now, is the Maine State Museum's display of a Confederate flag conveying the message that the museum is racist? I doubt it. But then most people looking at the flag in the museum would understand that, because they'd understand the context in which the flag is displayed. In contrast, is a Confederate flag flown at a KKK rally done to convey a message of racism? I think that goes without question. But then I also understand that context (and so does the KKK). Are the two displays equivalent. I'll leave that to the rest of you to figure out.

username wrote:

Remember John Prine?

Sure. I saw him in concert with Steve Goodman at Chicagofest back in the '70s.

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Setanta wrote:

You'd have to ask the protester what message it is that he or she attempts to convey. If your point it that not everyone agrees with what the flag of the United States is intended to signify, then i'm happy to stipulate that point. As regards the "stars and bars," i'd be happy to stipulate that not everyone who displays it intends to symbolize a racist institution. However, it would be foolish to ignore that to most people (it seems, at least), that flag symbolizes racism. So, is the flag racist? No, not necessarily.

Up to this point, I agree with you.

Setanta wrote:

Is it a racist symbol? I would answer that it is, even if not everyone who uses it intends a racist message.

I think the Confederate flag is very often used as a racist symbol -- so often, in fact, that we can assume, without knowing more about the person who is displaying the flag, that it is probably being used in that manner. But, as with any assumption, it is apt to be mistaken on occasion.

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Whoa, I envy you that experience. Saw him a couple months ago at the Club Passim 49th anniversary concert in Cambridge, and he can still say more in simpler words than probably anyone else in the universe.

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username wrote:

Your fellow a2kers overwhelmingly disagree with you.

Wouldn't be the first time.

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probably not the last.

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You have made a point about context when you referred to the display of this flag in a museum in Maine. In the museum, it is unlikely that the context would be mistaken, and the mistake can quickly be corrected by any docent who is sufficiently well educated in the meaning of the displays.

In any public display of this flag in which the context is not obvious, such as the museum or a KKK rally, it is a fact of life that many people, and perhaps even most people, are going to take it as at least a sentiment of support for the hagiography of the Confederate States Army, if not actually a racist sentiment.

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username wrote:

probably not the last.

I certainly hope not.

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Quote:

In 1767, the Sons of Liberty adopted a flag with nine vertical stripes (five red and four white). It is supposed that nine represented the number of colonies that were to attend the Stamp Act Congress. A flag having thirteen horizontal red and white stripes, used by American merchant ships during the war, was also associated with the Sons of Liberty. While red and white were common colors of the flags, other color combinations, such as green and white, in addition yellow and white, were used.

As I understand it, the stripes of the flag represented the stripes worn by prisoners and/or slaves and were used symbolically to mean that under the governorship (Stamp act) of England all americans were or would become prisoners/slaves. I could be wrong

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Ok first off this was a Nation so if this is racist then you are racist Because if you did any research you find out about the flag that flag is a war flag are you shock well let me tell you a little bit more if any body was to called this flag a symbol of hated to a scv member you might leave feeling like A A$$

Ok the KKk stole this flag from a real nation I see that But image if the crips took the USA flag in stared killing white people with it would you caledd the USA flag Racist I believed not so why to you claed a real nation flag racist

I know why the kkk End of story

Ps. A union General said these word I believe it was grant

This War is not over slaves

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Thank you, bellew, for helping to dispell the notion that all Confederate flag lovers are illiterate, inarticulate yokels.

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Yup, dispelled it. Dispelled the hell right out of it.

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OMG is that what you got hahahahah

you two pick a stupid mess up and say its everyone

Thats shows your stupidly

I might mess up some stuff only thing I asked if you two can do your D### research

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snood wrote:

Yup, dispelled it. Dispelled the hell right out of it.

None of this is misspelled, however:

bellew wrote:

Quote:

are you shock well let me tell you a little bit more if any body was to called this flag a symbol of hated to a scv member you might leave feeling like A A$$

Joe(Is this the heritage I keep asking about?)Nation

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Racism depends on the person
The Confederate flag in and of itself is not racist. It is how it is used and seen. Where I live, in Seattle, it is seen by most as a horrible sign of racism, and unfortunately is used that way. I have a friend from the south. He see's the flag as Southern Pride and Heritage. When I look at the Confederate flag, I am saddened by it. I think of the families torn apart by the Civil War. Brothers and fathers fought their brothers and sons. I am always reminded of the Darryl Worley song "Shiloh". The last part of the song, "Brother killing brother, father slaying son. By the looks of this old graveyard, hell, nobody really won.", describes how I feel looking at this flag. I completely disagree with what the Old South stood for, I believe it was wrong, but, I don't believe the flag always stands for that wrong anymore. It can represent trying to remember a rich history, a painful war, and yes, it can also represent the worst or racism. It is up to the people who see and use it to decide what they mean.

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Welcome to A2K Rhen.

Quote:

I have a friend from the south. He see's the flag as Southern Pride and Heritage.

Many of us, myself included, have such a friend. When one of them is asked to relate exactly what they mean by Southern Pride and Heritage they begin to splutter, stutter and display very bad cases of mushmouth.

They can't ever proclaim that the South was fighting for freedom.

Joe(people would laugh in their face)Nation

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to the original poster....it is a flag, and the connotations associated with this flag reside in the individual viewing said flag.

Imagine how the Muslims in Acre felt when they saw the Cross flags of the crusaders...now those were racist symbols, and ironically a basis for most of the flags of medieval/present Europe.

the war, from the Souths point of view, was about preserving a way of life, aka a heritage. This included slaves. Blacks (African Americans) have issues with this as it relates to their heritage. This is where the conflict lies...Whites (European Americans?) want to preserve their heritage, despite it's wickedness. They believe there is nothing wrong with honoring an abhorrent past (refer to the crusades/WW1/WW2/Etc.).Blacks think the South was designed to oppress their race, therefore, all Southern ideologies/heritages are racist.

Blacks tend to forget that it was Africans that sold them to the Spanish traders to begin with.

Whites tend to forget that they stole this land to begin with.

Both tend to forget the race of people that were raped, starved, and slaughtered wholesale for this land.

to Joe Nation...there is a spellcheck function at the bottom of the page, so your spelling ability doesn't come in to play. Ah, the arrogance!

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Still can't say it though, can't say that the South was fighting for freedom because it wasn't. It was fighting to preserve the supremacy of the white race, not only an abhorrent idea, an undemocratic one as well.

Remembering an abhorrent past is one thing, honoring that past is quite another. And I'm not surprised that Blacks would think that Southern heritage is a cover term for a racist ideology because they would be right.

Joe(But, hey, I do appreciate the shoutout to the cause of the Native Americans.)Nation

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Is This a Racist Flag?

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