wife's drinking

Well, I've looked at 40 sites since I posted that and don't remember what I was snarling about back then.

So, in the mean time, I beg pardon..

And if Osso was nearer by; we'd be tying one on right now...

In my life I've watched a wide variety of imbibing.
I don't think most of it is very cute, whether by beer drinkers or wine sots or booze hounds (to not let myself out, of all of those, I like booze).
Although some manage it, re their life styles.


Better to find a life out of the alcohol algorithm. Which, there's my pov, doesn't necessarily mean no alcohol.

Er - on review, I see I was speaking of cutting and pasting as doable...

(so ready to be guilty, I am)




Not everyone who has ever drunk too much is a candidate for a life of AA.

My business partner's son really was, and has long been helped.
She went too, since of course she drinks too much. She was repulsed...
No, she did NOT dive into those various behaviours.


I won't knock AA, but I've some wariness. I've family members who've survived via nonAA sites.



Waves to O'Bill...

Andrew--



I've known a number of people with high-pressure personalities or high-pressure jobs who drift into alcohol as a way to relax.

Could your wife be using alcohol as a way to cope with stress on the job and boredom at home? You say you two have lots of interests. What happens during the working week except for work?

Accept that her drinking is her problem and coping with her drinking is your problem--as long as you choose to cope. This is where Al-anon comes in very handy. You'll find out that while you can't control her behavior, you can control your own.

Do you feel that you've become an enabler?

You say, "no children yet". Obviously postponing a family until the marriage is stable is an excellent idea. Fetal alcohol syndrome is an ugly and unnecessary curse on an innocent child.

oh, I'm not arguing with you Bill. It might be nothing at all.

It's just that her anger seems, well, not typical.

Until we hear more from our poster, it's hard to say exactly what/if the exact behavior is he's concerned about.

Just going by my personal experience of having drunk for many years and having not drunk for many years, I've had the opportunity to examine for myself the way that our society as a whole behaves individually toward drinking.

My overall impression of people as a whole is that in general, believe it or not, we are a largely non-drinking society. Before you laugh at that, I'm not saying that individuals to not tie one on at a wedding or even a Friday night out, but in general, people are just as happy to not drink, or politley have one.

Since you own restaurants, maybe you'll identify with this story, and, can educate me in something.

Back in the day, I felt it was my obligation to have as many drinks as possible while having dinner out (and lunch...I rarely when out for breakfast :wink: ) My rationalization for this was that it was building up the waiters/waitresses tips. Yeah, really.

A while after I stopped drinking, I was at an oyster bar type restaurant in South Florida, one that I'd eaten and drunk at before, and viewed as a place where mass quantities of beer would be drunk, to go along with the seafood and company. Anyway, I was with a couple people, having a good time, when the waitress came by for our drink order. Timidly, I asked for an ice tea, and was surprised I didn't pick up a hint of "oh brother, there goes my tip" from the waitress...

A bit later, during a lull in the conversation, I looked around. I was absolutely AMAZED when I realized that out of the dozen or so tables in the area, the vast majority of people where drinking sodas or tea. I'd say like 70%. At some tables, NO ONE was drinking How could this be!?!! This was a Friday or Saturday Night!!! South Florida!!!

Anyway, my point, is there is one, is that if someone notices another persons behavior is off, as pertaining to drinking, I feel it merits a closer look.

It's honestly VERY rare that a non-drinker will see a person having an occassional tipsy as being out of line. Just thinking we need more detail.

Osso, you mentioned AA....yeah, that's a whole nother can of worms. It helped me when I was pretty much without a prayer, but IMO, the problem is many people there don't like seeing someone be self sufficient and get a life. We could go on about what I see as it's cult like aspects, which I see as an interesting conversation in itself.

Unfortunately, I'd bet that before long someone with an evangelical feeling towards AA would come along with the usual party line of gleeful predictions of impending drunkeness for anyone who doesn't adhere.

Anyway, bottom line, I need more info. I do see your points Bill. In honesty however, tons of people have never gotten piss on yourself drunk.

Bill, I get the impression that Andrew is a tea-totaler but even so, he isn't objecting to his wife's occasional use of alcohol. It when she gets blasted and out-of-control sh!t-faced that puts him over his tolerance zone.

As someone who enjoys drinking as much as the next guy (and sometimes more than the next guy), I'm reminded of the company Christmas parties I attended while pregnant, and therefore abstaining. I quickly came to realize that drunks are typically obnoxious and spending time with people who are potted when you're stone sober is anything but fun. I can imagine how uncomfortable it would be for a non-drinker to live with someone who, even occasionally, set out to get wasted.

Andrew, as others have said. You can't control your wife's drinking - only she can do that. You can, however, control your reaction to it or determine if you are somehow enabling it. Al-anon is a good place to get info.

You gave me a chuckle JPB...yeah, it's really an eye opener how NOT funny someone really is when they're drinking.

Also, that turning on a dime thing some people do....laughing one minute, glaring the next....being a don juan and thinking they're all that.

there's a reason it's called intoxicated.

more info
Thanks everyone for your comments, they have been helpful. More info... I don't drink, as I am an ex-drug addict and have been clean for 10 years. I don't drink cause for me it is a slippery slope downhill. Maybe that's why I seem to have so much problems with all of this and don't really know how to handle this issue. When we met I was very up front about this. It wasn't a problem, cause we weren't living together for the first 2 years of our relationship. She could go home and have a drink or two no problems. The trouble started when we moved in together. I made it a condition of living together that no beer would be in the house. She would go out with the girls once or twice a month and this was no problem. But a couple of times she came home and passed out in the hallway, with the front door wide open. After that, she stopped going out, and I agreed that she could drink at home once in a while. Of course, After a couple of months she went on a binge and I asked her to limit her drinking to no more than 2 beers, no more than twice a week. Fine for another couple of months, then she broke her promise. Then she agreed to just drink only on days off. Lasted for like 2 months. Then she agreed to only drink on Mondays. Lasted 2 months. The big thing for me was this summer, my brother was coming in from out of town to our place early on morning and she stayed up till 4am drinking ( I couldn't sleep!). Then got up at 7am to greet them, still half-drunk. My brother asked me why she smelled like a brewery. Another time we were having a new couch delivered at 7am on a Saturday. She stayed up all night drinking and then passed out on the couch they were supposed to take away, I had to shake her in front of everyone. It was embarrassing. Then she went like 5 months of not drinking anything and everything was great, till she started up again, and I told her that if we couldn't come to some kind of agreement, if she couldn't drink responsibly, then I was unwilling to stay. So that was in October. She told me that she wouldn't drink in the house anymore. I asked her last night, why she drinks ? She said that for her it is a stress reliever and she thinks that having a couple of beers once in awhile is no problem. I agreed but explained that the going crazy every 3-4 months is the problem. If she could find out how to stop this, things will be better. She refuses to go to a counsellor just for herself, so I asked her to think about going to a marriage counsellor with me. I am so upset, as I love her so much and everything else in our lives is so dam great. I am feeling hopeless today that this will work out at all.

Thanks
Andrew

Don't mean to monopolize the responses, but I so feel for you.

Remember back when you were doing drugs, and there was this one time where you acheived, or came near to acheiving this perfect high, and ever after that you just keep chasing and trying to recapture that experience?

I never got into drugs, but that was the way it was with drinking. I'd tell people I'd drink to de-stress too, and yeah, I was stressed, because I was trying to figure out these exact proportions that would bring me back to that one time where I was perfectly relaxed and de-stressed by the booze. That one time.

When she drinks, does she actually become de-stressed, or is it a futile search?

Having been an addict, you realize someone doesn't have to indulge every day to have a problem, you know that.

I keep coming back to the parts where she keeps starting up again, saying she won't drink at home, slipping back into in....being angry she can't drink when and where she wants....all that. Again, a person without a problem just wouldn't get bent out of shape about that the way she does. The fact this is causing a problem in your marriage is all the evidence I would need to say there is a drinking problem going on, and the problem isn't yours.

Is it my problem I won't let a smoker light up in my house? If I kept coming home to a smoky house, and see someone sitting there smoking when I've asked them not to...is that my problem?

No.

It's the problem of the person addicted to the tobacco. The smoker who uses it as a de-stressor.

Al-anon has been brought up several times.
What are your thoughts on that Andrew?

me again
Al-Anon, - Ya I just finished looking at there web site actaully. I was reading about being an enabler. Didn't really get it though. I will consider going to a meeting.

Thanks everyone for all your comments. I do appricaite it.
Andrew

Well, I'm now more than 20 years sober.
I've never had a problem with someone's drinking habits or getting drunk.
Privately.
(It was different professionally when I worked as a councillors alcohol and drugs related.)


I would consider your wife being in the group of epsilon [perhaps delta] alcohilics.
(Using here the definition by Jellineck [1960!]

)

Interesting Walter...

how did they come up with that alpha to epsilon progression?

at elsilon I'm reading binge drinking

getting worse with delta, gamma and beta.

then, with alpha it goes to psychological, but not physical dependance.


I would have though the beta, progressing to organ failure (what my brother died from) would have been the alpha.

do you know?

First published:
Jellinek, E.M., "Phases of Alcohol Addiction," Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol 13:673-684, 1952.

Jellinek has been the "pope" re alcoholism.

A bit about Jellinik here.

Andrew, I more than understand your embarrassment and concern about the times when your wife over-does it with drinking. I also more than understand how hard it must be for you to feel powerless to do anything about it.

Like others here, I've been around alcoholics and personally witnessed the types of behaviors you're describing. In my case it was my father, but I'll spare you the details. Suffice it to say, if you're wife won't help herself, then you can only help yourself. An offer of joining her in marriage counseling is a step but many times the focus marriage counseling is the relationship (the marriage) not the individuals and their issues. GREAT, if your wife agrees to join you in marriage counseling but I would still advise you to try an Al-anon group for your own benefit.

Interesting listing, Walter.

Well, Jellinek's model is much discussed.

And I don't think, it can be taken "litterally" but only as a guide line.
(There are certainly a lot of people who just drink and aren't alcoholics at all - those what be within that categories.)

Andrew, let me ask you some questions. I'm not trying to pry, but the answers might lead you somewhere...

Do either of your parents have dependency issues with alcohol or drugs?

What about your wife's parents?

What were the qualities that attracted you to your wife to begin with?

Do those qualities remind you (even in the abstract) of one or both of your parents? If so, were they qualities that you admired in your parent(s), or were they perhaps qualities that caused trouble in your relationship with them while you were growing up?

Does she still exhibit those qualities?

Do you still admire them?



I could be totally out in left field, but people are oftentimes attracted to individuals who remind them of their parent(s). Usually, it's the opposite sex parent (your mother), but not always. We tend to be attracted to those who, over time, begin to become more and more like the parent we had the most trouble with while growing up. The very things that attracted us to this person become the same things that drives us crazy later on.

If there was a genetic tendency toward your dependency on drugs, then it is quite possible that you became attracted to someone with the same issues. I learned this the hard way.... my first husband was the rebirth of my father, only I didn't see it until we had been married for quite some time. They were both alcoholics who didn't like children (tough draw for a kid). I later learn that my pattern of choosing a partner that would ultimately guarantee that my relationship pattern would continue into my adult life was quite normal. Fortunately, knowledge is power and I was able to do a much better job of choosing a partner the second time around.

Does any of this resonate with you?

Chai, in my restaurant experience: Few people drink during lunch on weekdays (perhaps 10-15%), and those that do usually don't drink much (I cross trained my wait staff to eliminate a bartender on week days). Probably push that up to 30% on weekends. Dinner on the other hand, the ratios would probably be more like 50% and 75% respectively. 70% not drinking on a weekend strikes me as an anomaly… and I'd guess you were dining quite early.

JPB… you don't have to tell me about being the sober one in the room full of drunks. That can make you crazy! My mom used to call it "drinking in self defense", when I'd grab a beer before joining her at the kitchen table if Grandma was visiting. Now that we know Andrew is "born again" sober (as I suspected), that deepens my impression that his wife's drinking is that much more an irritant mostly just to him. Take Chai's smoking example for instance. The non smoker, who freaks out, claims to be allergic, etc., is almost invariably an ex-smoker. The people I've known who NEVER smoked usually don't like it, but are less apt to freak out about it.

I'm not suggesting, Andrew, that you don't have every right to live your life without alcohol or the annoyance of drunk people, but it doesn't sound like that's the woman you married. Some people likeyou drink too much, you smoke too much and you leave your **** all over my apartment"' stage (stemmed from one sweetheart, that two of us dated at different times). Those that married and seem to be living happily ever after seem to have hooked up with people who either have similar appreciation for the party, or no qualms with their partner's excess or lack of same. I've known as many people who wish their partner would party more as I have who wished for less… it's just usually a more subdued wish. I understand this type of compromise isn't an option for you, but that doesn't make it her fault.

IMO, it is you who will either learn to accept your wife, with all of her faults, or not. You'll likely have no better luck changing her, than anyone else dissatisfied with this attribute or that, in respect to their partner. Unless she agrees with you that she has a problem, the problem will remain your burden to carry, not hers. You will have to decide if your own compromise from an ideal mate was justified 6 years ago… and if it continues to be justified today, tomorrow and in the foreseeable future. How important is this to you? Only you can decide.

Yeah, Al Anon is good. Or even just chatting with people who get where you are coming from - which Al Anon has and more.

What worries me about your posts is you. It seems like as you love this woman so much, the booze is sneaking closer and closer to you.
Your boundaries started out firm and crisp, and slowly disintegrate in broken promises.
You are comprimising more than you initially thought good for you. That is worrisome.

I'm not an expert and I'm not married. Just a woman with a past of living with an alcoholic, and who has danced the fine line of too much herself. Instead of booze, I flirted with drug addiction.

My present partner drinks less than me and to see him even smoking pot would be a rare day indeed. And that's the only way I would have it.
We all know our tolerance level, but for you it could be flirting with something much more dangerous than just bad memories.

From your posts, I think your wife does have a problem with drinking.
The problem is that she is defending the drinking even when it is becoming destructive in your relationship, and a problem for you. It is as if she has blotted you out of the picture when she choses to binge - bad sign to me.

So, it is up to you to do something to keep yourself well, even if that means some waves. You are worth it.

I tried to post earlier but had issues. I remembered to highlight and copy though! I think alot of what I was saying was said better by others (o'bill for one), but in case you want another version, here it is...

Congrats on your ten years clean!

I come from a family of addicts. My father is an alcholic. And my brother has been clean and sober for 22 years. I know for myself I don't have any tolerance for drug usage from a man I'm in a serious relationship with. (I don't care if my friends do, just so long as it's not in my house or car) I would not stand living with a drunk either.... But then, you need to identify with what your standards of a drunk are.

My man drinks more than I do. I know I have a tendency to pay attention to his drinking and question whether I find it acceptable to me...

Getting support for yourself to handle her drinking might help. And might help you to find a way to deal with whatever ends up happening...

I think it's about you finding out how you got yourself where you are and what your tolerances can allow....