Venting..

LoveMyFamily wrote:

Lord E, Ashers love you.. Then tell me one more thing. Do men always try to find someone else to blame them for their miseries? You don't have to answer that. ...........

To be truthful, probably yes....but that isn't just confined to men, as your question seems to suggest.
This is obviously a woman thing as well, evidenced by your opening post on this thread in fact.
Maybe it's just a human thing, all this blaming others for our own unhappiness.

In this particular case, to be frank, it's your man being blamed, when in actual fact it's a simple matter of a total lack of communication/action between the TWO of you that has caused you to vent.
Well, THAT, and the poor start in life that your husband endured, as far as all round life education was involved.

We've all been there and done that, I would imagine, but the point I was trying to make is that there seems to be a recurring "core" problem of male and female children being brought up ( I prefer to use the word "trained") in totally different ways, leading to differing attitudes and skills in later life.

I would certainly agree that nearly everyone has a certain task or tasks that they hate doing. There are also other jobs that they love.
But to reach adulthood and actually have no clue as to HOW to do certain basic things is not right, in my opinion.
Either that person is ACTUALLY incapable (it happens, but rare) or they've missed out on a vital piece of their "education" during their formative years. The worst scenario is when they're actually infuenced by their parent/s that certain tasks are restricted to certain genders. Ridicule plays a big part in this, by the way.....especially when it comes to peer pressure from other men.
"What? you actually do housework?" or "Look at him....he must be under the thumb". Comments like this are not rare, and are a contributing factor to the perpetuation of the core problem, I feel.

This "education" also works the other way, and I'm thinking things like basic car maintenace or most DIY skills etc., being shown to girls.
This sort of stuff, sadly, is still considered, even in this modern world, to be MEN'S work.

Cobblers, I say (quaint Brit expression - meaning bollocks). Men and women are more than capable of mixing and matching all of these tasks.
We just need the initial training and work ethic instilled in the first place.

........and that's a parent's job, or a case of self training for means of survival.

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Chai wrote:

Lord Ellpus, no wonder you are the most desired man on A2K.

All us wimmins know you will fufill our fondest fantasy, which is getting the dinner dishes done and laundry folded..........

Chai, I know you had your tongue in your cheek when you wrote this, but I honestly didn't come on here to score any brownie points.
In actual fact, I was seriously considering becoming one of those "anonymous" relationship thread posters, with an idea that I could vent without anyone knowing who it was.
I would imagine that within two or three lines of my standard writing (far too many commas etc) people would have sussed who I was and it would've been SO embarrassing.

It is just so grating to me, to read about yet another man who does a Homer Simpson while the world revolves around him, and HE gets all the blame.
If ANY of us, male or female, were waited on hand and foot from day one, and actually deterred from even thinking about working around the home, we'd all probably end up sitting around and ringing a little hand bell when we needed something. Classic female example that springs to mind? Paris Hilton. Waited on hand and foot throughout her entire life.
Just see how good SHE'D be with an iron, a vacuum cleaner or a tub full of laundry.
Taking it to the extreme, I know, but many, many boys are brought up in this "waited on" manner.

I can't speak in detail as to how girls miss out during their formative years, as my two sisters are much older than me and were off and doing their own thing by the time I had to basically learn to fend for myself.
Both of them, however, wait on their partners hand and foot, so they obviously went through the "conventional" training at some stage, I would guess.

I liked squinney's comment, by the way. That girl's got the right idea.

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Ashers wrote:

Good post LE! Interesting. Do you think some people (men or women) just have much more of a predisposition to household work? I wonder how major the impact of a "proper" upbringing (teaching men these things) has?

Yes, I think that we're all different in as much as some people can sit and look at a mess, whereas others will feel an inner drive to get it all cleared up and put away, but I think that a lot of it has to do with being trained to do things as a matter of habit.
How much of this is already there, and how much is drummed into you, I can't really say.
My "training" all stemmed from my first job, I reckon. I started as a "Saturday boy" in a butcher's shop in my early teens, and was repeatedly bellowed at by the big hairy Boss Butcher, for making such a mess as I worked.
Obviously, in a commercial food prep area, tidiness and hygiene were paramount, and I vividly remember being cuffed round the head as he walked past, on many occasions.
I soon learnt to clean and put things away as I worked, and to finish the job by scrubbing the whole place from top to bottom.

Now, when I cook a family roast, I automatically clear up as I go along and when the meal is ready, chances are that you wouldn't even know that anyone had set foot in the kitchen.
My sister in law is the exact opposite. I think that she lets off a hand grenade in the kitchen before she starts to prepare a meal, personally.

As far as being predisposed towards housework, I don't think that many people actually regard such work as the highlight of their day.
I just make it as pleasant as poss, by turning up the radio loud or tuning into a phone in programme, and losing myself in it while I go onto autopilot.
My aim is to get it done as good as possible, in the least possible time. I sometimes (and this may sound weird) actually race myself, trying to beat the time in which I completed it the last time around.
As long as it's done properly, my idea is just to get it behind me in the shortest possible time, so I can get on with doing more enjoyable things (like being stupid on A2K).

Quote:

I'd have thought that both future men and women would be noticeably worse at all of this given the expectation of education amongst other things.
fair.

Very good point, Ashers.
I think this will be the case for many future young couples/families.
There will probably be a massive boom in home helps, nannies, laundry/ironing delivery services etc., in the near future.
The modern, well educated couple will earn very good money between them, but most probably chuck half of it at the service industry in order to get all this housework stuff done for them.

Personally, if I had a cleaner coming, I'd probably end up scrubbing the whole house from top to bottom before they arrived each week, to prevent any potential shame/embarrassment.

Not so with the new upcoming generation, I feel.

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Lord E you nailed it right. There are serious communication issues regarding the domain of housework. I am not good at it neither is my husband. We sat on Sunday night for solving this issue. This instead turned out into a blaming game. Do I sound like a monster? If you see a man venting next, be sure it is my husband Laughing

eoe, he certainly would have attended upon the baby if I asked. But I have to ask. It's not that he was deliberately ignoring the cries. It just did not register to him that a crying baby needs to be attended to. If I ask him to do it, it is like I am dictating him. If I don't, I end up doing it myself.

When we first started, I was over active. That's how me and my sister were trained to be by our parents. Getting everything (man's job and a woman's job) done before someone even complains of it. My being overactive and my husband being a complete novice in house hold work.. sure recipe for disaster 10 years later Laughing

I go back read my post and I think.. god I can bitch. Ok fellas no more bitching.. back to work.

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Lord Ellpus wrote:

Personally, if I had a cleaner coming, I'd probably end up scrubbing the whole house from top to bottom before they arrived each week, to prevent any potential shame/embarrassment.

I do that before I leave the hotel room. People stare at me when I tell them that. Glad I am not alone.

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I have a nearly seven month old, and if I was busy with something and my husband would ignore the crying little munchkin (for more than a few minutes) there would be a serious discussion about things.

For goodness sake, he's a grown-up man, how can he NOT KNOW that a crying baby needs some sort of attention.
Especially after having a five-year-old already.

But then Sozobe already picked up on something I was going to say (love Sozobe), it sounds like you 'make' your husband lazy by taking everything out of his hands.
I have a friend like that. Everybody was always bitching about her lazy husband, funnily after she started work again, and he HAD TO take on more duties, and he was actually alone with the children without her interfering and trying to correct and better things, he turned into a quite capable father.

Maybe you should just leave him to fend for himself for a while without butting in. Would that be an option?

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LoveMyFamily wrote:

Lord Ellpus wrote:

Personally, if I had a cleaner coming, I'd probably end up scrubbing the whole house from top to bottom before they arrived each week, to prevent any potential shame/embarrassment.

I do that before I leave the hotel room. People stare at me when I tell them that. Glad I am not alone.

I've toyed with the idea of a cleaner too, but like you both said, I'd have a hard time letting them see my dirty things!

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squinney wrote:

Linkat wrote:
Maybe ask your husband what he would prefer to do with the housework. That way you are not dictating to him (if he feels that way) and he feels he can have more say. My husband cleans the bathrooms and I clean the kitchen. I usually get the kids ready and he will iron the clothes for the morning. That sort of thing. It may take a while because he is not used to taking on the additional work.

I was going to read and comment on this thread, but as you can see I got stuck at "...he will iron the clothes for the morning..."

They still make clothes that need ironing???

My husband is a Marine. He irons jeans, sweats you name it. That's why he irons in the morning and I don't.

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eoe wrote:

What would have happened if, while the baby cried and you did your workout, you suggested that your husband pick him up?

Or simply say, "Hon, could you get junior while I finish working out?"

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LoveMyFamily wrote:

Lord E you nailed it right. There are serious communication issues regarding the domain of housework. I am not good at it neither is my husband. We sat on Sunday night for solving this issue. This instead turned out into a blaming game. Do I sound like a monster? If you see a man venting next, be sure it is my husband

eoe, he certainly would have attended upon the baby if I asked. But I have to ask. It's not that he was deliberately ignoring the cries. It just did not register to him that a crying baby needs to be attended to. If I ask him to do it, it is like I am dictating him. If I don't, I end up doing it myself.

When we first started, I was over active. That's how me and my sister were trained to be by our parents. Getting everything (man's job and a woman's job) done before someone even complains of it. My being overactive and my husband being a complete novice in house hold work.. sure recipe for disaster 10 years later

I go back read my post and I think.. god I can bitch. Ok fellas no more bitching.. back to work.

It can get to you when you have to ask repeatedly. But you need to do it with your children to get them "trained", I just figure hubby is similar. Hopefully he will after a while do these things without you asking, if you always do ask. Sort of like children - if you are not consistent, then you have issues. Men are a bit like children aren't they?

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Funny story regarding crying babies and fathers. My mom would tell me how my dad would never "hear" the baby crying - she always had to tend to the crying baby. Not that my dad was lazy, he just really didn't hear the baby cry.

Once when my mom went out for an errand, she comes home to not a crying baby, but a screaming baby. How could anyone not tend to a screaming baby? My dad was fast asleep on the couch - not hearing a sound.

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LoveMyFamily wrote:

It just did not register to him that a crying baby needs to be attended to.

I'll have to admit, this one really floored me.

I seem to remember hearing/reading somewhere that the sound of a baby crying is the hardest thing for a human to ignore. I think if you can do so, you're making an effort to do so.

If it does not register to someone that a baby crying needs to be attended to, what does that person think the purpose of crying to be?

I could be wrong, but that just sounds like you're making excuses for him.

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[quote="Linkat"]Funny story regarding crying babies and fathers. My mom would tell me how my dad would never "hear" the baby crying - she always had to tend to the crying baby. Not that my dad was lazy, he just really didn't hear the baby cry.

Once when my mom went out for an errand, she comes home to not a crying baby, but a screaming baby. How could anyone not tend to a screaming baby? My dad was fast asleep on the couch - not hearing a sound.[/quote]

Actually my for a while I thought my husband did not hear the baby crying in the night.
Until he told me that he always waits to see if I get up before moving...
Since I know that, I can sometimes NOT HEAR the baby, too...

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Linkat wrote:

Funny story regarding crying babies and fathers. My mom would tell me how my dad would never "hear" the baby crying - she always had to tend to the crying baby. Not that my dad was lazy, he just really didn't hear the baby cry.

Once when my mom went out for an errand, she comes home to not a crying baby, but a screaming baby. How could anyone not tend to a screaming baby? My dad was fast asleep on the couch - not hearing a sound.

whoops, crossed posted linkat.

I'll believe your storey is true, but my first reaction is "was he passed out drunk"?

did he hear jackhammers and jet airplanes taking off?

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Linkat wrote:

Men are a bit like children aren't they?

In a nutshell, no.

If you happen to have a male who acts like a child, the probability is that you have his Mum to thank for that.

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LoveMyFamily wrote:

When we first started, I was over active. That's how me and my sister were trained to be by our parents. Getting everything (man's job and a woman's job) done before someone even complains of it. My being overactive and my husband being a complete novice in house hold work.. sure recipe for disaster 10 years later

There you go. Exactly.

Since you've been setting the tone so far while your husband reacts, now you need to be the one who establishes the new order of things. As others have already said and you've acknowledged, this sitting back and waiting to see if he takes over thing is not going to work. It needs to be explicit, especially if it's an abrupt change. (If you've been doing it for 5 years, I'm sure he's used to it!)

It sounds like you know what the problem is and know what needs to be done, you're just having problems with the communication aspect. (The "blame game" on Sunday.) One suggestion I have there is to take the fact that he's offered to help and run with it. "Thank you SO much for offering to help. You're right, I need to include you more. I have this mindset that I'm supposed to be the one doing everything and with two kids and a job that's just not realistic. So let's start with this. What's something you'd like to do more often?"

Keep it positive, keep it about meeting his needs too (a lot of dads really ENJOY spending time with their babies once they get over the "ack I'm doing it wrong" phase), give it some time (big adjustment for him), and remember that you might have to give up a bit more than him (especially when it comes to control -- your son missing breakfast once isn't great but is it really the end of the world?) since you have so much to do with how you guys got to this point.

I'm impressed with your self-awareness and I bet you can effect some change.

Good luck!

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LoveMyFamily, it sounds like you 'made your bed' a long time ago and now you don't like the lumps. Of course, you're only venting...not looking for change, right?

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Bohne wrote:

[quote="Linkat"]Funny story regarding crying babies and fathers. My mom would tell me how my dad would never "hear" the baby crying - she always had to tend to the crying baby. Not that my dad was lazy, he just really didn't hear the baby cry.

Once when my mom went out for an errand, she comes home to not a crying baby, but a screaming baby. How could anyone not tend to a screaming baby? My dad was fast asleep on the couch - not hearing a sound.

Actually my for a while I thought my husband did not hear the baby crying in the night.
Until he told me that he always waits to see if I get up before moving...
Since I know that, I can sometimes NOT HEAR the baby, too...[/color]
[/quote]

You don't now my dad - he sleeps through anything. He was snoring when my mom arrived home - she wasn't even home so no one else was there to attend to the baby. The baby was next to him wailing (as my mom described). She woke him up and yelled at him. He was obviously asleep.

The other you described - my hubby used to do - until I started to do it too.

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Chai wrote:

Linkat wrote:
Funny story regarding crying babies and fathers. My mom would tell me how my dad would never "hear" the baby crying - she always had to tend to the crying baby. Not that my dad was lazy, he just really didn't hear the baby cry.

Once when my mom went out for an errand, she comes home to not a crying baby, but a screaming baby. How could anyone not tend to a screaming baby? My dad was fast asleep on the couch - not hearing a sound.

whoops, crossed posted linkat.

I'll believe your storey is true, but my first reaction is "was he passed out drunk"?

did he hear jackhammers and jet airplanes taking off?

Nope no drinking - my dad is known for his heavy sleeping. And he used to sleep any where. Once my dad was sleeping on the picinic bench in the yard. I talked my little brother into throwing a pail of water on him. That woke him up. My dad was so mad. He jumped up and my brother screamed - with a look of panic and horror my brother began running. My dad caught up with him and gave him a good whoop on the butt. My friend and I just rolled on the ground laughing.

My dad is that wiggle guy that sleeps all the time.

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Lord Ellpus wrote:

Linkat wrote:
Men are a bit like children aren't they?

In a nutshell, no.

If you happen to have a male who acts like a child, the probability is that you have his Mum to thank for that.

Oh, I'm just playing.

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