I Think

My PMer persists. I told him last it is not my place to persuade him on a course in life. Suggested he look with a skeptical mind to the books and teachers he pursues. The answers may lie in between.

Our government appears to be running on scripts lifted from some soap opera. The improbable alliances, betrayals, irrational moves to create anxiety for the viewers. Anything seemingly resolved probably isn't. And it never changes unless somebody cancels the show.

A new fear for some: The year will be thirteen. Unlucky 365 days. At least, they should be aware, it is not a leap year. Smile

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@edgarblythe,

I think Im gonna avid the "SChool shooting" thread . Its gotten like a pinwheel with the same stuff over and over and lotsa name calling when folks get frustrated that their "impeccable logic" cannot be understood and swallowed.

I GOT THREE SEED CATALOGS AWREADY!!!

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@farmerman,

I think you will find fm that I have raised matters on that thread that are not only not repetitive, not name calling and that have not been answered to.

But I agree that some of the posters there, a majority, are guilty of the charges you make. One might avoid all threads on that basis.

There is a sort of parallel between the defence of the NRA and those defences made by established industries in Pagan times involved with the supply of animals for sacrifice, idol making and gladiators and numerous other suppliers of items which Christianity threatened.

Similarly with the burial customs in ancient Egypt which might be considered to be a real Fiscal Cliff.

Those who speak of decline might be considering in the same regard the rites and privileges of the medical, legal and educational professions as well as those of the gun lobby and the responses to its growth. Those holding broadcasting licences might be added.

The "suits" as The Spectator used to call them. Not only do we have the "Monstrous Regiment of Women" but the "Suits" they have under the cosh.

I would love to get Judge Jones in the pub arguing about whether he's under the cosh or not.

Is there any "same stuff" like that anywhere?

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Once the trolls gang bang a thread I lose interest, for the most. If I see a poster I care about, I drop in to read a bit but not likely to get into it after that.

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@edgarblythe,

I think. ed, that such a policy is likely to lead to you being satisfactorily convinced that your ideas are sound.

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@spendius,

Most of my ideas are if not sound a step in the right direction.

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

Most of my ideas are if not sound a step in the right direction.

Not this one, Edgar.

Quote:

The war in Afghanistan has gone way beyond retribution for 911 and ought to be ended as quickly as possible.

That was another illegal invasion of a sovereign nation. That is the ultimate war crime. The Afghans did nothing against the US. If "retribution" was in order, the Afghans should have atttacked the US for the misery and death that the US has brought upon that land with its completely devoid of any semblance of humanity political machinations.

This was another situation where the US made big claims about "helping the people of Afghanistan". Haven't you ever asked yourself why the US's help means millions die?

It is so bloody obvious. Why does this US national delusion go on?

Quote:

The objective of the intervention, as spelled out by Brezinski, was to trap the Soviets in a long and costly war designed to drain their resources, just as Vietnam had bled the United States. The high level of civilian casualties that this would certainly entail was considered but set aside. According to one senior official, "The question here was whether it was morally acceptable that, in order to keep the Soviets off balance, which was the reason for the operation, it was permissible to use other lives for our geopolitical interests." Carter's CIA director Stansfield Turner answered the question: "I decided I could live with that." According to Representative Charles Wilson, a Texas Democrat,

There were 58,000 dead in Vietnam and we owe the Russians one.... I have a slight obsession with it, because of Vietnam. I thought the Soviets ought to get a dose of it.... I've been of the opinion that this money was better spent to hurt our adversaries than other money in the Defense Department budget.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Afghanistan/Afghanistan_CIA_Taliban.html

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@JTT,

When GW insisted they give up Bin Laden and they refused, the stage was set. As I said, we took it much too far.

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A cold Saturday morning, but, the sun is out, the sky is blue. Who in hell's Heather?

Looks like we will have to live with uncertainty. Ever since GW Bush first got elected, the socio/politico/econo situation has been thrown out of kilter and may not regain equilibrium any time soon.

We got one of those three pot slow cookers for Christmas. Now we have to buy something to put in them. Who's gonna eat all that food? Decisions decisions.

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@edgarblythe,

The Taliban didn't refuse, Ed. You just swallowed the lies.

But regardless, even if they had refused, that still doesn't give the US any right to break international law and invade a sovereign nation. It was another of the US's frequent war crimes.

If you think that the US had some right here then you have to allow that the actions of 9-11 were justified. Retribution for years and years of meddling in the ME, killing civilians, stealing their wealth, supporting dictators that brutalized and murdered.

Given your scenario, retribution against the US is due from every Central and South American country, numerous African countries, Vietnam, Cambodia, hell pretty much every country in the world. The US harbors tens of thousands of terrorists, it still sends out scores more to wreak havoc around the world.

It's been constant terrorism against Cuba for over fifty years.

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@JTT,

You are never going to get clean politics from the major powers, ever in our lifetime. You are forced to pick and choose until enough people have had enough. So far at least 50% have not.

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

You are never going to get clean politics from the major powers, ever in our lifetime.

With all due respect, Ed, you're certainly not when you're not even honest enough to address your own misconceptions.

We are discussing the US's illegal invasion of Afghanistan based on lies that you seem to have bought.

Quote:

So far at least 50% have not.

Do you really think that anywhere near 50%, 25%, 10% of Americans know of the predacious behavior of its governments?

Look at how responsible, how adult like even those who do know are.

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@JTT,

You are addressing what I did years ago. I support getting out of the endless wars and I don't intend to apologize for making that kind of mistake under those circumstances.

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

You are addressing what I did years ago.

What would have caused you to stop, Ed?

Quote:

I support getting out of the endless wars

I wish we could call them "wars". They have been nothing remotely resembling wars. They have been vicious actions perpetrated against defenseless people solely to steal the very bread from their tables.

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and I don't intend to apologize for making that kind of mistake under those circumstances.

I don't understand what you mean by "that kind of mistake" or "under those circumstances".

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Fighting and killing is war. Label it how you like, if you disagree. It will not alter the end result.

I do not intend to pursue this discussion any further.

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

Fighting and killing is war. Label it how you like, if you disagree.

I'm just labeling it with a sense of reality in mind, Ed. 'war' is justifiable, illegal invasions are not. That's what they hung people for at Nuremberg and Tokyo.

Is there any sane reason to think that Bush et al and Obama et al shouldn't suffer the same fate?

Quote:

It will not alter the end result.

You don't think so. Are you suggesting that even if the majority of Americans became aware of their governments predacious, vicious, thieving past, they wouldn't change the end result?

Thee country, where government is of the people, by the people, for the people, would continue to allow/vote in groups of war criminals and terrorists to run the country.

That's too mind boggling to even consider, don't you think?.

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@JTT,

Do you think after three hundred years we will suddenly do things differently? Not a chance.

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

Do you think after three hundred years we will suddenly do things differently? Not a chance.

That assumes that Americans know what their governments are doing, have been doing. Do you really think that Americans are that well informed?

[See, Roger. I'm sure you can imagine how I might have used a negative question there for a slightly different affect]

Sorry for the aside, Ed.

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@JTT,

I don't say all or even most are aware. Just that it does not change, largely for the same reasons teaparty people never waver in their endeavors.

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

I don't say all or even most are aware. Just that it does not change

Well, I would have to suggest that making them aware would be a pretty good start. Education is a good thing, is it not?

I want to believe, like Gracie believes that most Americans are good, that if a majority became aware, they wouldn't be so susceptible to the lies, to the propaganda.

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