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Now We Know Where The Evil Ones Get Their Weapons

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2007 03:16 pm
blacksmithn wrote:
You ought to put your will where your mouth is then and toddle off to help support the fledgling democracy, gun in hand.


*yawn*

That's getting old.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2007 03:17 pm
blacksmithn wrote:
You ought to put your will where your mouth is then and toddle off to help support the fledgling democracy, gun in hand.


Fat Chance.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2007 03:19 pm
Re: Brandon
Brandon9000 wrote:
Zippo wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:

That is an unjustified conclusion. With us out of the way, the insurgents might focus on overthrowing the government.


What makes you think they won't do that when we eventually do leave Iraq. Their sectarian conflict could last for 50 years, assassinating 50 PM's.

This is exactly what I do think they'll do, if we don't beat them decisively before we leave. And don't tell me it's impossible. Very little is impossible if one has the will to do it.


Ah yes, the Green Lantern theory of global diplomacy. Nice to know you are solidly based in reality.

Quote:

*yawn*

That's getting old.


No, it isn't. It's still quite true that you Righties here on A2K support this war completely, until someone suggests that you actually go fight it, in which case you have many good reasons why you personally don't have to go. But it's just a shell for your cowardice.

I'm pretty sure that people are going to continue to keep pointing this out to you, until you either join the armed forces or stop advocating that we send them off to war.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2007 03:34 pm
Are you a 'chicken hawk?'

By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | July 23, 2006

``IT'S TOUCHING that you're so concerned about the military in Iraq," a reader in Wyoming e-mails in response to one of my columns on the war. ``But I have a suspicion you're a phony. So tell me, what's your combat record? Ever serve?"

You hear a fair amount of that from the antiwar crowd if, like me, you support a war but have never seen combat yourself. That makes you a ``chicken hawk" -- one of those, as Senator Frank Lautenberg of New Jersey, defending John Kerry from his critics, put it during the 2004 presidential campaign, who ``shriek like a hawk, but have the backbone of a chicken." Kerry himself often played that card. ``I'd like to know what it is Republicans who didn't serve in Vietnam have against those of us who did," he would sniff, casting himself as the victim of unmanly hypocrites who never wore the uniform, yet had the gall to criticize him, a decorated veteran, for his stance on the war.

``Chicken hawk" isn't an argument. It is a slur -- a dishonest and incoherent slur. It is dishonest because those who invoke it don't really mean what they imply -- that only those with combat experience have the moral authority or the necessary understanding to advocate military force. After all, US foreign policy would be more hawkish, not less, if decisions about war and peace were left up to members of the armed forces. Soldiers tend to be politically conservative, hard-nosed about national security, and confident that American arms make the world safer and freer. On the question of Iraq -- stay-the-course or bring-the-troops-home? -- I would be willing to trust their judgment. Would Cindy Sheehan and Howard Dean?

The cry of ``chicken hawk" is dishonest for another reason: It is never aimed at those who oppose military action. But there is no difference, in terms of the background and judgment required, between deciding to go to war and deciding not to. If only those who served in uniform during wartime have the moral standing and experience to back a war, then only they have the moral standing and experience to oppose a war. Those who mock the views of ``chicken hawks" ought to be just as dismissive of ``chicken doves."

In any case, the whole premise of the ``chicken hawk" attack -- that military experience is a prerequisite for making sound pronouncements on foreign policy -- is illogical and ahistorical.

``There is no evidence that generals as a class make wiser national security policymakers than civilians," notes Eliot A. Cohen, a leading scholar of military and strategic affairs at Johns Hopkins University. ``George C. Marshall, our greatest soldier-statesman after George Washington, opposed shipping arms to Britain in 1940. His boss, Franklin D. Roosevelt, with nary a day in uniform, thought otherwise. Whose judgment looks better?"

Some combat veterans display great sagacity when it comes to matters of state and strategy. Some display none at all. General George B. McLellan had a distinguished military career, eventually rising to general in chief of the Union armies; Abraham Lincoln served but a few weeks in a militia unit that saw no action. Whose wisdom better served the nation -- the military man who was hypercautious about sending men into battle, or the ``chicken hawk" president who pressed aggressively for military action?

The founders of the American republic were unambiguous in rejecting any hint of military supremacy. Under the Constitution, military leaders take their orders from civilian leaders, who are subject in turn to the judgment of ordinary voters. Those who wear the uniform in wartime are entitled to their countrymen's esteem and lasting gratitude. But for well over two centuries, Americans have insisted that when it comes to security and defense policy, soldiers and veterans get no more of a say than anyone else.

You don't need medical training to express an opinion on healthcare. You don't have to be on the police force to comment on matters of law and order. You don't have to be a parent or a teacher or a graduate to be heard on the educational controversies of the day. You don't have to be a journalist to comment on this or any other column.

And whether you have fought for your country or never had that honor, you have every right to weigh in on questions of war and peace. Those who cackle ``Chicken hawk!" are not making an argument. They are merely trying to stifle one, and deserve to be ignored.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2007 04:04 pm
I don't think anyone is contending that military experience is a prerequisite for discussing war.
I also don't think that you believe that invoking a slur such as "chickenhawk" stifles debate any more than one of your guys using "tree hugging liberal pussies".
Saying that "X" or "Y" stifles debate is a fast way of stifling the debate.

What I believe is being said McG, is that if you support this war, continue to support it, and believe that continued human resources are necessary, then pack your bags and up the numbers on the front lines....or at least brew some coffee for some American boys at cafe Baghdad.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2007 04:04 pm
Re: Brandon
Brandon9000 wrote:
Zippo wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:

That is an unjustified conclusion. With us out of the way, the insurgents might focus on overthrowing the government.


What makes you think they won't do that when we eventually do leave Iraq. Their sectarian conflict could last for 50 years, assassinating 50 PM's.

This is exactly what I do think they'll do, if we don't beat them decisively before we leave. And don't tell me it's impossible. Very little is impossible if one has the will to do it.


I bet the USSR really had had the will to beat down the insurgents in Afghanistan....
0 Replies
 
blacksmithn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2007 04:04 pm
Gee, another armchair general justifying his position. That NEVER gets old...

Funny how they always can be counted on to pontificate, and to justify their pontification up the yin-yang, but they always seem to be missing from the action; as they bellicosely point the sharp end of the spear, but adroitly avoid it themselves.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2007 04:11 pm
Re: Brandon
old europe wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Zippo wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:

That is an unjustified conclusion. With us out of the way, the insurgents might focus on overthrowing the government.


What makes you think they won't do that when we eventually do leave Iraq. Their sectarian conflict could last for 50 years, assassinating 50 PM's.

This is exactly what I do think they'll do, if we don't beat them decisively before we leave. And don't tell me it's impossible. Very little is impossible if one has the will to do it.


I bet the USSR really had had the will to beat down the insurgents in Afghanistan....


I'll bet there's a whole lot of will on the other side of the conflict. What else can account for the whoopin' the US is taking over there. It certainly isn't their reams of military technology and equipment.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2007 04:25 pm
Re: Brandon
candidone1 wrote:
old europe wrote:
I bet the USSR really had had the will to beat down the insurgents in Afghanistan....


I'll bet there's a whole lot of will on the other side of the conflict. What else can account for the whoopin' the US is taking over there. It certainly isn't their reams of military technology and equipment.


Exactly my point. I don't think that the USSR gave a lot about being PC, so that can't be the reason they had to "cut and run" from Afghanistan, right? And they certainly didn't lack the military technology and equipment, compared to the Mudschaheddin, right?

And in case that it wasn't a lack of will - what then was the reason?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2007 04:33 pm
Ivananoff Leichochenko had no coonskin cap.
There's no alamo in the Urals.
God ain't a commie.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2007 04:37 pm
My suspicions are that the glass parking lot theory is still being tossed about by the war loving conservatives.
Bush seems to be posturing to either draw someone into a conflict that would justify nuclear options, or one that would justify massive arms buildups like we saw during the cold war.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2007 04:50 pm
From McG's piece:
Quote:

You don't need medical training to express an opinion on healthcare. You don't have to be on the police force to comment on matters of law and order. You don't have to be a parent or a teacher or a graduate to be heard on the educational controversies of the day. You don't have to be a journalist to comment on this or any other column.


Sure. But if you want anyone to take you seriously, it helps to have experience in these matters. If you want to go on and on about how these matters are earth-shatteringly important, and how those who don't support your view are cowards and idiots, then it helps to have experience in these matters.

The thing is, ChickenHawks - such as the several found here on A2K - pretend to have either a higher moral position or a higher knowledge position when it comes to armed forces matters. They have neither. In fact, their penchant for casually tossing around suggestions about killing and death and murder, as if they were trivial matters, belies their hollow morality; they would not be casually advocating such things if there was a good chance they would be standing on the front lines, or if it were their family in discussion.

Jacoby, quoted by McG, would like you to think that commenting on a journalistic piece is the same thing as supporting military action, that stating your preference for Advil over Tylenol is roughly the equivalent for calling for the killing of Al Sadr or the invasion of Iran. Nothing could be further from the truth. These are not trivial or provincial matters we are discussing, but ones that affect the entire world and all of humanity. Greater care has to be taken when advocating courses of action which lead to the loss of life; when one advocates gambles with people's lives, basically.

To sum up - Conservative cowards are mighty big talkers when it comes to the lives of others. When criticized for this, the inevitable response is 'people die in war, regrettable, hmm, it's sad but neccessary...'; but that's bullshit. Because they never advocate policies that will lead to their own death and dying, ever.

This is why Boxer's comments to Rice are so fitting and apt - nothing Rice advocates is going to lead her to viewing a body which just came off the plane and contains her dead brother or son. Ever. So she just doesn't have the same amount invested in this as other Americans do.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2007 07:09 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
From McG's piece:
Quote:

You don't need medical training to express an opinion on healthcare. You don't have to be on the police force to comment on matters of law and order. You don't have to be a parent or a teacher or a graduate to be heard on the educational controversies of the day. You don't have to be a journalist to comment on this or any other column.


Sure. But if you want anyone to take you seriously, it helps to have experience in these matters. If you want to go on and on about how these matters are earth-shatteringly important, and how those who don't support your view are cowards and idiots, then it helps to have experience in these matters.

The thing is, ChickenHawks - such as the several found here on A2K - pretend to have either a higher moral position or a higher knowledge position when it comes to armed forces matters. They have neither. In fact, their penchant for casually tossing around suggestions about killing and death and murder, as if they were trivial matters, belies their hollow morality; they would not be casually advocating such things if there was a good chance they would be standing on the front lines, or if it were their family in discussion.

Jacoby, quoted by McG, would like you to think that commenting on a journalistic piece is the same thing as supporting military action, that stating your preference for Advil over Tylenol is roughly the equivalent for calling for the killing of Al Sadr or the invasion of Iran. Nothing could be further from the truth. These are not trivial or provincial matters we are discussing, but ones that affect the entire world and all of humanity. Greater care has to be taken when advocating courses of action which lead to the loss of life; when one advocates gambles with people's lives, basically.

To sum up - Conservative cowards are mighty big talkers when it comes to the lives of others. When criticized for this, the inevitable response is 'people die in war, regrettable, hmm, it's sad but neccessary...'; but that's bullshit. Because they never advocate policies that will lead to their own death and dying, ever.

This is why Boxer's comments to Rice are so fitting and apt - nothing Rice advocates is going to lead her to viewing a body which just came off the plane and contains her dead brother or son. Ever. So she just doesn't have the same amount invested in this as other Americans do.

Cycloptichorn


I think your whole statement is utter and complete bullshit. Rice doesn't have have the same amount invested in this as other Americans? You should be ashamed of that statement just as much as Boxer should be for her ridiculous statement.

The slur "chickenhawk", and that is indeed what it is, is nothing but a cheap tactic used when the left can no longer come up with anything to say in response. It the reply of the weak.

Rice, as Secretary of State, she has far greater responsibility for the people of the United States, including each and every soldier. Far greater responsibility then those merely related to those soldiers. Our civilian government sends those men and women into danger. It's an easy tactic to declare that Bush and others in government "don't care" because they aren't going, but I guarantee you they care and they live with the deaths of each and every single one of them. They take defending the nation far more seriously than a bunch of slobs posting on an internet forum trying to defame them. They speak to the soldiers parents, they live with the facts that they have sent those soldiers to their deaths, no leader bears more responsibility for their deaths and the reasons for their deaths then the President. He is Commander in Chief. They were elected to lead our country and they do so to the best of their abilities and whether or not you, or anyone else agrees with them, they face the realities of a world in which terrorism is a real threat. They face the pressure deciding to send soldiers to war and that war results in death.

You come on here flinging words like "chickenhawk" around because you disagree with others opinions. No other reason at all. Having experience as a soldier, or having family at war does not have any bearing at all on my opinions. Calling me, or other posters, coward is nothing more then your being a jerk. It the insult of last resort for you and your ilk.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2007 07:48 pm
McGentrix if we go to war with iran and Syria they will have to lower their standards for the sake of bodies on the ground and you will probably get an opportunity to go kick some ass and kill some rag heads.

I am soooo happy for you. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2007 08:41 pm
Was it not these usual suspects Cyclo who, with the swifties, crucified Kerry because of his military record, but who have also staunchly defended Bush's "military" record.
They almost exclusively support those who have served and maintain that those individuals are the company with whom they share the moral authority to discuss and wage war.

Their contradictions are glaringly obvious, not to mention their inability to restrain themselves in the overuse of partisan slurs.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2007 09:33 pm
McGentrix wrote:


I think your whole statement is utter and complete bullshit. Rice doesn't have have the same amount invested in this as other Americans? You should be ashamed of that statement just as much as Boxer should be for her ridiculous statement.

You should be ashamed of your grammar. That was a doozy. Could you provide a translation for your second sentence?

The slur "chickenhawk", and that is indeed what it is, is nothing but a cheap tactic used when the left can no longer come up with anything to say in response. It the reply of the weak.

It is a perfectly apt description for war-mongering chickenshits.

They speak to the soldiers parents, they live with the facts that they have sent those soldiers to their deaths, no leader bears more responsibility for their deaths and the reasons for their deaths then the President. He is Commander in Chief.



Quote:


Bush Ignores Soldiers' Burials

By Christopher Scheer, AlterNet. Posted October 30, 2003.

President Bush has not attended the funeral of a single U.S. soldier killed in Iraq. And veterans are starting to notice.

On Monday and Tuesday, amid the suicide bombing carnage that left at least 34 Iraqis dead, three more U.S. servicemen were killed in combat in Iraq. In the coming days their bodies will be boxed up and sent home for burial. While en route, the coffins will be deliberately shielded from view, lest the media capture on film the dark image of this ultimate sacrifice. It is almost certain, as well, that like all of the hundreds of U.S. troops killed in this war to date, these dead soldiers will be interred or memorialized without the solemn presence of the President of the United States.

Increasingly, this proclivity on the part of President Bush to avoid the normal duty of a commander-in-chief to honor dead soldiers is causing rising irritation among some veterans and their families who have noticed what appears to be a historically anomalous slight.

"This country has a lot of history where commanders visit wounded soldiers and commanders talked to families of deceased soldiers and commanders attend funerals. It's just one of these understood traditions," says Seth Pollack, an 8-year veteran who served in the First Armored Division in both the first Gulf War and the Bosnia operation. "At the company level, the division level ... the general tradition is to honor the soldier, and the way you honor these soldiers is to have high-ranking officials attend the funeral. For the President not to have attended any is simply disrespectful."

http://www.alternet.org/story/17079/



Granted, this story was from 2003. Has this caring soul been shamed into attendance?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2007 09:37 pm
An update on the caring soul.

Quote:


How Bush has stayed away from soldiers' funerals
By Andrew Buncombe
Published: 01 March 2006

More than 2,290 US troops have been killed in Iraq. President George Bush has attended none of the funerals - for which he is often criticised by the families of those who have died.

Nadia McCaffrey's son Patrick, 34, a member of the Californian National Guard, was killed during an ambush in Iraq in June 2004. She said she had not expected Mr Bush to attend her son's funeral in person but thought the government would send someone.

"It's not just me. Many, many people say the same thing," she said, speaking from her home near San Francisco. "He was my only child, but it wahttp://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article348415.eces not only that. Patrick did not want anything from the military. He joined up out of patriotism. I would have thought that... somebody could have come. Nobody showed up."


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article348415.ece

0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2007 09:56 pm
blacksmithn wrote:
You ought to put your will where your mouth is then and toddle off to help support the fledgling democracy, gun in hand.

That's a false argument and obviously so. First of all, I don't have to participate in every single thing I believe in. Secondly, even accurately showing my personal faults says nothing about the truth or falsehood of my assertions. Thirdly, you have utterly failed to address the content of what I asserted, undoubtedly because you cannot. You apparently prefer to debate in the style of small children.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2007 09:56 pm
Bush attends funerals only when there's a photo op, and he can show his crock tears. He's sending more to get killed for a cause that's been lost some years ago. Democracy, his last justification, is now a civil war.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2007 09:58 pm
Re: Brandon
old europe wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Zippo wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:

That is an unjustified conclusion. With us out of the way, the insurgents might focus on overthrowing the government.


What makes you think they won't do that when we eventually do leave Iraq. Their sectarian conflict could last for 50 years, assassinating 50 PM's.

This is exactly what I do think they'll do, if we don't beat them decisively before we leave. And don't tell me it's impossible. Very little is impossible if one has the will to do it.


I bet the USSR really had had the will to beat down the insurgents in Afghanistan....

The fact that someone once wanted to do something but failed doesn't mean that the problem they faced was impossible.
0 Replies
 
 

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