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IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 11:55 pm
Quote:
dward Amsler, of the Medical Liability Mutual Insurance Co., says most of the blame lies with the tens of millions of dollars New York juries award families of disabled children.


NYPost

The blame? Shouldn't the blame be directed towards the physicians who make the mistakes, that cause the disabilities of the children and others?

Why blame the Jury?
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 08:02 am
Miller wrote:
Quote:
dward Amsler, of the Medical Liability Mutual Insurance Co., says most of the blame lies with the tens of millions of dollars New York juries award families of disabled children.


NYPost

The blame? Shouldn't the blame be directed towards the physicians who make the mistakes, that cause the disabilities of the children and others?

Why blame the Jury?


that is VERY subjective. physicians are people too, and they make mistakes. have you ever thought about how much stress they are under? to expect them to never make a mistake is crazy. that being said, i imagine a lot of these cases are not that a physician actually caused an issue but that the parent didn't like the outcome or took a chance and it turned out badly. nothing is medicine is guaranteed. for ABSOLUTELY ANY procedure, there is a risk, and sometimes that risk includes death. that is why before any of that, patients are provided with information on what is going to be done and made aware of the risk. they are made to sign an acknowledgment of the risk prior to. a lot of these people took the gamble and lost. that is not the fault of the physician. now, i realize there have been serious mistakes made and for those i offer no defense. however, in many of these cases, i'm not sure that having a trial by jury is a good thing. a jury will almost always side with the plaintiff because they feel sorry for them or because they view doctors as some sort of infallible super-person that is not allowed to screw up.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 08:14 am
How's universal health insurance or any other health insurance connected with of trial lawyers and patient-advocacy groups?

Such, if it ever happens here, isn't a subject of health insurance at all.
(Only connected to the doctor's third party liability and the patient (if she/he one: her/his legal costs insurance).
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 08:56 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
How's universal health insurance or any other health insurance connected with of trial lawyers and patient-advocacy groups?

Such, if it ever happens here, isn't a subject of health insurance at all.
(Only connected to the doctor's third party liability and the patient (if she/he one: her/his legal costs insurance).


because the organization (hospital) typically pays for that insurance. if they are forced to pay out more, they will increase their prices to compensate.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 09:38 am
If hospitals insist in holding incompetent doctors, they should go out of business - for the sake of the patients.
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 09:54 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
If hospitals insist in holding incompetent doctors, they should go out of business - for the sake of the patients.


the idea that because a doctor is sued, he is incompetent is silly.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 10:06 am
USAFHokie80 wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
If hospitals insist in holding incompetent doctors, they should go out of business - for the sake of the patients.


the idea that because a doctor is sued, he is incompetent is silly.


I would say that this idea isn't all that silly. Many if not most malpractice cases are built in fact; not every doctor deserves to lose his job or license for making an error, but many do.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 10:22 am
USAFHokie80 wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
If hospitals insist in holding incompetent doctors, they should go out of business - for the sake of the patients.


the idea that because a doctor is sued, he is incompetent is silly.



After a few mistakes by the same doctor and the incidence of mistakes based on a national average, most hospitals should know who is incompetent and who is not. It's been common knowledge that other doctors do not report their associates for malpractice.
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 10:34 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
If hospitals insist in holding incompetent doctors, they should go out of business - for the sake of the patients.


the idea that because a doctor is sued, he is incompetent is silly.


I would say that this idea isn't all that silly. Many if not most malpractice cases are built in fact; not every doctor deserves to lose his job or license for making an error, but many do.

Cycloptichorn


many mal practice cases are built on greed. many are built on the fact that in a poor situation, the patient doesn't survive or things don't go well and the parents or spouse of the patient sue. that doesn't make the doctor incompetent. a doctor can do everything correctly and still be sued by people who aren't happy with the outcome.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 10:59 am
USAFHokie80 wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
If hospitals insist in holding incompetent doctors, they should go out of business - for the sake of the patients.


the idea that because a doctor is sued, he is incompetent is silly.


I would say that this idea isn't all that silly. Many if not most malpractice cases are built in fact; not every doctor deserves to lose his job or license for making an error, but many do.

Cycloptichorn


many mal practice cases are built on greed. many are built on the fact that in a poor situation, the patient doesn't survive or things don't go well and the parents or spouse of the patient sue. that doesn't make the doctor incompetent. a doctor can do everything correctly and still be sued by people who aren't happy with the outcome.


Sure; but those cases very rarely end up in the large payouts you see in court. Usually, it's the doctor's incompetence or error which causes malpractice, not avarice.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 11:29 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Sure; but those cases very rarely end up in the large payouts you see in court. Usually, it's the doctor's incompetence or error which causes malpractice, not avarice.

Cycloptichorn


On what factual basis do you make this assertion?

Everything of course depends on the meanings you attach to "very rarely" and "usually".

The fact is that compared to Europe and other countries the U.S. is an exceedingly litigious place. The costs of lawsuits for damages due to malpractice, product liability, and employee claims are indeed very significant parts of the cost of doing business for doctors, manufacturers, and professional service providers of all types. The risk of a large adverse liability judgement is usually covered by insurance and the premiums for it can be very large -- large enough in many cases to drive a provider out of business or at least cause him to avoid certain sectors or services entirely. In many parts of the country this has severely limited the number of Doctors in certain practice areas, including particularly Obstetrics. It also contributes to raising the price for services and goods paid by all.

Moreover it is simply not true that all such legal actions are well-merited even in cases where large pre-trial settlements or adverse (to the provider) judgements are handed down by juries. For example, a large fraction of employee claims for discrimination are without objective merit, even though they provide a legal basis for findings of fault on something as unknowable as the subjective intent of people who make necessary decisions and choices. The cost of litigation is high and settlement for (say) $50 thousand or so is usually much cheaper than a protracted defense.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 11:33 am
My statement was factually correct. Very rarely do cases without any merits whatsoever end up in the large payouts which are typically blamed by the insurance industry for rising costs (without factual basis themselves). It would be preposterous to believe that cases with no merit regularly end up in large payouts or settlements; in the absence of specific data, it can be safely assumed that our system of justice actually does its' job.

Quote:
For example, a large fraction of employee claims for discrimination are without objective merit, even though they provide a legal basis for findings of fault on something as unknowable as the subjective intent of people who make necessary decisions and choices.


How large a fraction? It would seem that we all do some of the things we criticize others for - especially when it comes to statistics.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 11:53 am
You are selectively evading the obvious points I made in the post above. I did not restrict my argument to a few "large" judgements. Indeed, I was specific about the relatively greater cost of malpractice/product liability/discrimination lawsuits and liability, across the board - involving large claims and small, in this country compared to others. I also noted regional differences within the country. Jurisdiction shopping can hardly be an unfamiliar term for you.
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 12:03 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
My statement was factually correct. Very rarely do cases without any merits whatsoever end up in the large payouts which are typically blamed by the insurance industry for rising costs (without factual basis themselves). It would be preposterous to believe that cases with no merit regularly end up in large payouts or settlements; in the absence of specific data, it can be safely assumed that our system of justice actually does its' job.

Quote:
For example, a large fraction of employee claims for discrimination are without objective merit, even though they provide a legal basis for findings of fault on something as unknowable as the subjective intent of people who make necessary decisions and choices.


How large a fraction? It would seem that we all do some of the things we criticize others for - especially when it comes to statistics.

Cycloptichorn


"merit" can be manufactured in many of these cases. medicine is not an exact science. doctors often have different opinions on the same thing. one can manufacture the "merit" by finding a doctor that disagrees with the treating physician's choice.
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 12:05 pm
i imagine, if we look we could easily produce a case where a patient presented with the flu. the doctor didn't prescribe antibiotics and the patient later died of the illness. of course, the family sues on the basis that the doc didn't prescribe drugs to combat the illness.

actually, now i'm curious of just what sorts of crazy things i can find. i'll have to go look.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 12:15 pm
Here are stats of malpractice claims for 2007 by state.

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparebar.jsp?ind=436&cat=8&yr=18&typ=1
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 12:15 pm
USAFHokie80 wrote:
i imagine, if we look we could easily produce a case where a patient presented with the flu. the doctor didn't prescribe antibiotics and the patient later died of the illness. of course, the family sues on the basis that the doc didn't prescribe drugs to combat the illness.

actually, now i'm curious of just what sorts of crazy things i can find. i'll have to go look.


I have a difficult time seeing how the doctor could be held responsible for failing to prescribe antibiotics for Influenza, as that is a viral agent. It would be more appropriate to sue him if he HAD prescribed antibiotics, and the patient had died...

George, I realize that you didn't limit your statement to 'large payouts.' But I did:

Quote:

Sure; but those cases very rarely end up in the large payouts you see in court. Usually, it's the doctor's incompetence or error which causes malpractice, not avarice.

Cycloptichorn


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 12:20 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:
i imagine, if we look we could easily produce a case where a patient presented with the flu. the doctor didn't prescribe antibiotics and the patient later died of the illness. of course, the family sues on the basis that the doc didn't prescribe drugs to combat the illness.

actually, now i'm curious of just what sorts of crazy things i can find. i'll have to go look.


I have a difficult time seeing how the doctor could be held responsible for failing to prescribe antibiotics for Influenza, as that is a viral agent. It would be more appropriate to sue him if he HAD prescribed antibiotics, and the patient had died...

George, I realize that you didn't limit your statement to 'large payouts.' But I did:

Quote:

Sure; but those cases very rarely end up in the large payouts you see in court. Usually, it's the doctor's incompetence or error which causes malpractice, not avarice.

Cycloptichorn


Cycloptichorn


i agree that it would be silly to sue for that. however, many - MANY - people don't understand that antibiotics will not help a cold. many parents demand antibiotics for their child's viral infection.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 12:23 pm
According to <citizensorg. malpractice payments are going down.


The number of payments resulting from settlements -- which predominate -- are now clearly heading down. As for payments resulting from judgments: Holding steady; no explosion there.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 12:36 pm
USAFHokie80 wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
My statement was factually correct. Very rarely do cases without any merits whatsoever end up in the large payouts which are typically blamed by the insurance industry for rising costs (without factual basis themselves). It would be preposterous to believe that cases with no merit regularly end up in large payouts or settlements; in the absence of specific data, it can be safely assumed that our system of justice actually does its' job.

Quote:
For example, a large fraction of employee claims for discrimination are without objective merit, even though they provide a legal basis for findings of fault on something as unknowable as the subjective intent of people who make necessary decisions and choices.


How large a fraction? It would seem that we all do some of the things we criticize others for - especially when it comes to statistics.

Cycloptichorn


"merit" can be manufactured in many of these cases. medicine is not an exact science. doctors often have different opinions on the same thing. one can manufacture the "merit" by finding a doctor that disagrees with the treating physician's choice.


That's not how the law is written...
0 Replies
 
 

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