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IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 04:24 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Miller, Good on ya, and congrats on your accomplishments.


Thank you!
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 04:29 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Well, the intelligent thing for us to do then would be to make the reforms necessary to have a market-based system that combined the best parts of the gov't-run systems with the innovation and flexibility of private ones.

Sometimes it is difficult to actually do "the intelligent thing". Aesop provides us with an interesting tale about a debate among the mice about what might be the "intelligent thing" to do about the cat.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

But, the whole 'shopping around for the best health insurance' line is a real canard. The vast majority of people dont' have the ability to pick and choose from dozens of providers. For the most part, this is due to the idiotic marriage of health insurance and employment; there's no correction ability when you're stuck and forced to either pick from three bad options, or quit the job you rely upon to feed your kids.


This is not accurate. The great majority of companies (and the number is increasing steadily) offer a menu of medical benefits including at least one HMO and other fee for service providers. The employee shares of the cost vary among these a good deal. Overall there is a significant tax benefit for both company and employee involved. One almost always has the option of declining the health benefit (and the employee share of the cost) and buying the insurance of your choice.

You get what you are willing to pay for.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 04:32 pm
USAFHokie80 wrote:
As for the claim of "billing for every little thing": the insurance company doesn't bill. That is the hospital. So that entire argument is pointless. If the hospital makes a mistake, the insurance company might refuse a claim. That is the fault of the hospital - NOT the insurance company. Further, would you rather them only bill for "the big things" and then just eat the cost of the rest? Is that their responsibility? No. Bills generated by hospitals come directly from the patient chart. Now maybe you got some screwy hospital, but most major hospitals derive charges directly from the diagnoses and I&O of a patient chart. Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with insurance.


It does have something to do with the insurance, as doctors are paid very well to perform expensive procedures. So, knowing this, doctors and hospitals love to perform expensive procedures, that pay well, are done by specialists and are mainly "shiffy-lube" types of items. One reason for the push for colonoscopy...

Do you think insurance will pay for patient to be psychoanalyzed, when a generic drug rx for the patient is so much cheaper?
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 04:34 pm
Cyclo: Did it occur to you that morphine was not on the insurance companie's formular for post-operative analgesic? It is not their fault that the hospital used it in this case. And they have every right to deny the charge. Hospitals screw up all the time. And when they do, they try to charge someone else for it.

As for my head being in the sand... I think the problem is that you have absolutely no idea how health care works and what is required to keep the industry going. Do you work in health care or are you basing all of this on your google searches and having been a patient? I'm betting the latter.

So if you claim that bills are not generated from charts... how exactly do you think billing is done?
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 04:36 pm
Quote:
Hospitals screw up all the time. And when they do, they try to charge someone else for it.


Hearsay and pure BS!
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 04:36 pm
george wrote :

Quote:
Please let us know when the "tuneup" in Canada occurs.


it is underway and as long as we keep the CONSERVATIVES out of the government , i believe it will continue .

as an example : for the last several months i can now go online and check the wait-times for various major procedures at all ontario hospitals - certainly gives patients , doctors , and caregivers important information with a few keystrokes .
electronic patient history is supposed to be next .
as i said : not perfect but moving in the right(not CONSERVATIVE right) direction .
hbg

ps : if you are wondering why i don't trust the conservatives , it's based on their previous mismanagemant of the health-care system in ontario
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 04:41 pm
See Miller's response above, Hokie.

The insurance company shouldn't get to pick and choose which medicines the doctor prescribes for the patient. My parents have/had no way of knowing which ones would be covered and which ones' wouldn't; you think they sat there in the post-op room and called the insurance company just to make sure?

I think that the hospitals and insurance companies both bill for each and every piece of work they think they can actually get away with - whether it is legitimate or not. They have every incentive to do so and no incentive not to do so; in the end, they both see a net gain in profits by doing so, and if someone calls them on it (like we did) then they just charge for what actually happened. There's literally no downside to the practice.

I know exactly how the health care insurance industry works - they use the money you give them, every month, as an investment. When they get lower returns on the investment, rates go up. This is the cause of the precipitous rate rises you've seen over the last several years; during the late 90's, when everyone was making money hand over fist, the various health insurance companies of America did quite poorly in their investments. As many of them are publicly traded, they have to keep showing returns... ergo, costs go up.

It's not complicated to figure out the swindle, unless you aren't trying.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 04:44 pm
[quote="Miller
It does have something to do with the insurance, as doctors are paid very well to perform expensive procedures. So, knowing this, doctors and hospitals love to perform expensive procedures, that pay well, are done by specialists and are mainly "shiffy-lube" types of items. One reason for the push for colonoscopy...

Do you think insurance will pay for patient to be psychoanalyzed, when a generic drug rx for the patient is so much cheaper?[/quote]

Colonoscopy is a preventative measure, which you were all claiming were so great a lil while ago.

See, there are SO many things wrong with this post. You have NO idea how hospital billing of physician compensation works. It's way too much to explain especially since I know you won't listen. But I will say that there is a good reason things are so expensive.... MEDICAID and MEDICARE! Even though people are becoming more and more unhealthy each year, and the cost of caring for them is going up, the government is steadily decreasing the reimbursements they pay for things. There are virtually ZERO procedures that are 100% reimbursed by these programs. So hospitals have to make up for it somehow. So, they increase the prices of goods and services. Not to mention how people are so sue-happy in the past decade that mal-practice insurance runs into the millions of dollars per year, which most hospitals pay for their physicians...
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 04:46 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
See Miller's response above, Hokie.

The insurance company shouldn't get to pick and choose which medicines the doctor prescribes for the patient. My parents have/had no way of knowing which ones would be covered and which ones' wouldn't; you think they sat there in the post-op room and called the insurance company just to make sure?

I think that the hospitals and insurance companies both bill for each and every piece of work they think they can actually get away with - whether it is legitimate or not. They have every incentive to do so and no incentive not to do so; in the end, they both see a net gain in profits by doing so, and if someone calls them on it (like we did) then they just charge for what actually happened. There's literally no downside to the practice.

I know exactly how the health care insurance industry works - they use the money you give them, every month, as an investment. When they get lower returns on the investment, rates go up. This is the cause of the precipitous rate rises you've seen over the last several years; during the late 90's, when everyone was making money hand over fist, the various health insurance companies of America did quite poorly in their investments. As many of them are publicly traded, they have to keep showing returns... ergo, costs go up.

It's not complicated to figure out the swindle, unless you aren't trying.

Cycloptichorn


Well quite honestly, I doubt Miller has any idea about what you're talking.

As for the formulary, you are right, your parents probably didn't know. But the hopsital DOES. However, if they prescribe and administer the wrong one and it's not covered... do you think they're going to offer to pay for it? NO. They'll try to bill insurance... who will tell them to get lost. And then they'll stick it to the patient.

And no, you have an idea about how insurance works, and it is partially correct. But you still have no idea how HEALTH CARE works and that is the problem here.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 04:47 pm
Premiums increase as claims increase. Claims increase with age, lack of education, and low socio-economic level.

If you have property insurance and file costly claims each year, you shouldn't be surprised that your premiums increase.

For animal health insurance, the same is true. If you pay $300/year for a dog to be insured and your claims amount to $400/year of which 80% is paid, don't be surprised that your premiums go up.

Same thing is true for annuities paid for by insurance companies. They're willing to pay you $700/month on your initial $100,000 investment
because they don't think you'll live long enough for them to NOT make a profit on your money.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 04:50 pm
Gee Miller, I guess that whole lifetime of work in the Medical industry has left you without any knowledge of how things actually work, according to Hokie. If only we all had realized long ago that Medicaid and Medicare were the reasons our costs as a nation went up, on average, 20% or so a year for the last 5 or 6 years.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 04:52 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
This is not accurate. The great majority of companies (and the number is increasing steadily) offer a menu of medical benefits including at least one HMO and other fee for service providers. The employee shares of the cost vary among these a good deal. Overall there is a significant tax benefit for both company and employee involved. One almost always has the option of declining the health benefit (and the employee share of the cost) and buying the insurance of your choice.

You get what you are willing to pay for.


So you're saying that 2 options provided by employers is ENOUGH. My company, which employs over 15,000 people offers 2 options for healthcare. I could buy coverage outside of my employer, but there is nothing to lead me to believe that any major insurance company would differ from any other in a way I would notice. I have the best insurance these companies offer.

In addition, the 'shopping around' free-market system just isn't adequate for healthcare coverage. Claims can only be denied AFTER the care has been provided. It is impossible to shop for an insurer to cover your claim that you had with another provider.

So, say my doctor says that I need a surgery and I get it. My insurance company then decides not to pay for it and I'm stuck with a 50,000 bill. What you're saying that I should do to solve this problem is find another insurance company who doesn't screw over their customers......but what do I do about this $50,000 bill? Hire a $10,000 lawyer to go up against the $500,000 lawyers that the insurance company has? Spend 10 years in court after losing my house, car, etc?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 04:55 pm
maporsche wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
This is not accurate. The great majority of companies (and the number is increasing steadily) offer a menu of medical benefits including at least one HMO and other fee for service providers. The employee shares of the cost vary among these a good deal. Overall there is a significant tax benefit for both company and employee involved. One almost always has the option of declining the health benefit (and the employee share of the cost) and buying the insurance of your choice.

You get what you are willing to pay for.


So you're saying that 2 options provided by employers is ENOUGH. My company, which employs over 15,000 people offers 2 options for healthcare. I could buy coverage outside of my employer, but there is nothing to lead me to believe that any major insurance company would differ from any other in a way I would notice. I have the best insurance these companies offer.

In addition, the 'shopping around' free-market system just isn't adequate for healthcare coverage. Claims can only be denied AFTER the care has been provided. It is impossible to shop for an insurer to cover your claim that you had with another provider.

So, say my doctor says that I need a surgery and I get it. My insurance company then decides not to pay for it and I'm stuck with a 50,000 bill. What you're saying that I should do to solve this problem is find another insurance company who doesn't screw over their customers......but what do I do about this $50,000 bill? Hire a $10,000 lawyer to go up against the $500,000 lawyers that the insurance company has? Spend 10 years in court after losing my house, car, etc?


Once you've been diagnosed with a condition, you even can't go get insurance elsewhere - you have a pre-existing condition and aren't a good investment for them. There's no way to 'shop around' until it's too late. And there's no real way to keep up with what is covered and what isn't by your insurance company...

Great example Maporsche.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 04:56 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Gee Miller, I guess that whole lifetime of work in the Medical industry has left you without any knowledge of how things actually work, according to Hokie. If only we all had realized long ago that Medicaid and Medicare were the reasons our costs as a nation went up, on average, 20% or so a year for the last 5 or 6 years.

Cycloptichorn


Obviously medicare and medicaid aren't the only reason, but they are a driving one.

And for the record, I am in the medical industry myself. As well as my boyfriend and the majority of our friends. So I have a pretty good idea of how this all works. It would serve you well to do some research beyond googleing for the 0.0000385 seconds or however long it took.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 04:58 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Gee Miller, I guess that whole lifetime of work in the Medical industry has left you without any knowledge of how things actually work, according to Hokie. If only we all had realized long ago that Medicaid and Medicare were the reasons our costs as a nation went up, on average, 20% or so a year for the last 5 or 6 years.

Cycloptichorn


Where would this nation be, if we didn't have Medicare and Medicaid to help seniors and the poverty-stricken?

Do we really want 90 year old seniors dying from starvation in the streets of our major cities?
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 05:00 pm
And as far as the nonsense posted in this forum on "formularies", anyone with medical experience knows, that hospitals have formulary committees that meet on a regular basis and have the right and obligation to change formularies at any time, without consultation with an insurance company.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 05:06 pm
maporsche wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
This is not accurate. The great majority of companies (and the number is increasing steadily) offer a menu of medical benefits including at least one HMO and other fee for service providers. The employee shares of the cost vary among these a good deal. Overall there is a significant tax benefit for both company and employee involved. One almost always has the option of declining the health benefit (and the employee share of the cost) and buying the insurance of your choice.

You get what you are willing to pay for.


So you're saying that 2 options provided by employers is ENOUGH. My company, which employs over 15,000 people offers 2 options for healthcare. I could buy coverage outside of my employer, but there is nothing to lead me to believe that any major insurance company would differ from any other in a way I would notice. I have the best insurance these companies offer.

In addition, the 'shopping around' free-market system just isn't adequate for healthcare coverage. Claims can only be denied AFTER the care has been provided. It is impossible to shop for an insurer to cover your claim that you had with another provider.

So, say my doctor says that I need a surgery and I get it. My insurance company then decides not to pay for it and I'm stuck with a 50,000 bill. What you're saying that I should do to solve this problem is find another insurance company who doesn't screw over their customers......but what do I do about this $50,000 bill? Hire a $10,000 lawyer to go up against the $500,000 lawyers that the insurance company has? Spend 10 years in court after losing my house, car, etc?


Prior to the procedure, the hospital can give you a written estimate of $50,000. You can then ask the insurance company, in writing, whether a claim of $50,000 will be paid. If not, then you can pay for the difference yourself, or you can skip the surgery.

You choose the insurance company. You read the rules and regulations in the contract you signed with the insurance company and the procedures etc covered by the company. This said, you have no BEEF...
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 05:07 pm
USAFHokie80 wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Gee Miller, I guess that whole lifetime of work in the Medical industry has left you without any knowledge of how things actually work, according to Hokie. If only we all had realized long ago that Medicaid and Medicare were the reasons our costs as a nation went up, on average, 20% or so a year for the last 5 or 6 years.

Cycloptichorn


Obviously medicare and medicaid aren't the only reason, but they are a driving one.

And for the record, I am in the medical industry myself. As well as my boyfriend and the majority of our friends. So I have a pretty good idea of how this all works. It would serve you well to do some research beyond googleing for the 0.0000385 seconds or however long it took.


I have been. Perhaps you could point out the evidence that would support your position and counteract mine; I apparently am in desperate need of it, and you appear to be in the exact position to offer it. I await eagerly.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 05:08 pm
ISMP Medication Safety Alert
February 10, 2005 Volume 10 Issue 3

The truth about hospital formularies
Survey shows many myths still exist 15 years later

Ideally, a carefully selected drug formulary guides clinicians in choosing the safest, most effective agents for treating medical problems. But, in 1990, Rucker and Schiff1 documented that full realization of this potential had been thwarted by misconceptions and myths. Fifteen years later, many of these same myths are still in existence, according to 265 respondents to our November 2004 survey.

Respondents were asked to report the frequency with which specific comments illustrative of these myths had been made during 2004 formulary deliberations at their Pharmacy and Therapeutic (P &T) Committee meetings. Interestingly, all eleven of the myths presented in the survey had been encountered by at least 19% of the respondents during 2004.

Reviewing just a few of the most frequently encountered myths reveals that formulary deliberations today may still be centered less on the critical evaluation of scientific data, and more on misconceptions about formularies.

The specialist knows best was the most common myth encountered during P&T Committee meetings. Almost three-quarters of respondents (74%) reported they'd received comments suggesting it was presumptuous for non-subspecialists to play a role in formulary decisions for specialty drugs. About one in five (19%) reported frequent comments, and 73% of all respondents who encountered this myth told us that the comments impacted formulary decisions. While specialists must be represented and consulted regarding formulary drugs within their specialty, nothing should preclude the P&T Committee from pursuing a thorough evaluation of each formulary request. Specialists are particularly adept at interpreting and presenting data on drugs in their area of interest, but a multidisciplinary peer group best evaluates clinical efficacy. Furthermore, safety is best evaluated by an interdisciplinary group of healthcare providers (physicians, pharmacists, nurses) who, collectively with specialists, may uncover otherwise unrecognized safety hazards to address before using the drug. Additionally, when research is involved, a thorough formulary review process can help avoid even the appearance of conflict of interest, and clearly separate drug prescribing for research purposes from patient therapy.

"Causal empiricism" was the basis for another frequently encountered myth. Again, three-quarters (75%) of respondents reported assertions from physicians that favorable experiences, replete with personal cases or anecdotal observations, justify the addition of a new drug to the formulary, at least for a "trial" period for the medical staff to "evaluate" the drug. Twelve percent of respondents reported hearing these types of comments often during formulary deliberations, and almost three-quarters (70%) of all respondents who encountered this myth reported that the comments impacted formulary decisions. Physicians are well aware of the importance of practicing evidence-based medicine, which fundamentally includes the need for randomized, blinded drug studies to prove efficacy and safety. But they may be unprepared to treat their own favorable experiences with skepticism, and may rely too heavily on their own abilities to evaluate the efficacy and safety of a new product. Thus, they may assume that their personal clinical impressions about the product are crucial to determine the quality of drug therapy, rather than relying on the P&T Committee's evaluation of available scientific evidence.

"Sicker patients need more drugs" was another myth heard by almost three quarters (74%) of respondents. Thirteen percent reported hearing comments related to this myth often during formulary deliberations, and two-thirds (67%) of all respondents who encountered this myth reported that the comments impacted the formulary decision. While most formularies include second-line alternatives for specified classes of medications, the assumption that sicker patients need more intensive pharmacotherapy, or more choices among available products, is only warranted if there is evidence of benefit. Some physicians may also claim that a strictly controlled formulary can cause life-threatening delays if an alternative non-formulary drug must be obtained. However, lack of therapeutic restraint and standardized protocols that carefully spell out how to handle emergencies well in advance - not the absence of a particular drug - have long been identified as major factors in iatrogenic injuries and catastrophic outcomes.

"The formulary interferes with clinical freedom" was cited as a problem by two thirds (67%) of respondents. Twelve percent reported frequent comments, many of which explicitly challenge the formulary concept. More than half (53%) of all respondents who encountered this problem reported that the comments impacted formulary decisions. Yet, the basic underlying tenets of an effective formulary include: (1) acknowledgment that each clinician prescribes a very limited subset of available products, (2) recognition that a formulary prepared by a group of experts and peers with adequate resources is likely more optimal than a clinician's personal formulary, and (3) preservation of clinical freedom by providing broad therapeutic decisionmaking guidance, not interference with prescribing.

"Widespread use equals drug of choice" was another claim encountered during formulary deliberations by almost three quarters of respondents (72%). Nine percent of respondents reported frequent comments promoting formulary addition of products due to widespread use, increased patient demand, and more subtle variations on this theme, including potential loss of competitiveness because other hospitals are using the drug. Almost two-thirds (65%) of all respondents who encountered these claims reported that they impacted formulary decisions. However, widespread use may be more a measure of marketing success than comparative benefits of the product, especially in light of the rapid acceptance of new drugs that ultimately proved to be potentially harmful, and the inappropriate prescribing of some high volume medications.

Perpetuation of these formulary myths and others initially covered by Rucker and Schiff1 can be traced back to many factors, including assertions from the pharmaceutical industry that formularies inhibit prescriber knowledge of their products and freedom to use any FDA approved medications. Non existent didactic training about using formularies as a powerful patient safety/quality tool, rather than a restrictive cost-containment strategy, during medical and pharmacy training also hinders progress and allows reinforcement of biased, negative feelings about formularies. Sadly, one thing's clear from our recent survey: tapping into the enormous potential of formularies will be a marathon in healthcare, not a sprint. Holding frank discussions about the formulary myths presented in our November 2004 survey could prove to be one giant step on this journey toward optimal care for patients. Focused attention on the theoretical foundation and operational parameters of formularies by health professional schools, the research community, and funding agencies could also result in identification of the most appropriate role of drug formularies in society today.

Reference 1: Rucker TD, Schiff G. Drug formularies: myths-in-formation. Medical Care 1990; 28:928-942. Reprinted in Hosp Pharm 1991;26:507-514.

Visit www.ismp.org/s/survey200411r.asp for full survey results.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 05:13 pm
Miller wrote:

Prior to the procedure, the hospital can give you a written estimate of $50,000. You can then ask the insurance company, in writing, whether a claim of $50,000 will be paid. If not, then you can pay for the difference yourself, or you can skip the surgery.

You choose the insurance company. You read the rules and regulations in the contract you signed with the insurance company and the procedures etc covered by the company. This said, you have no BEEF...


Is this something that everyone knows about? I've never known to ask for written estimates of anything at my Dr.'s office. Are written estimates required? If I were an un-informed patient, or if I were incapacitated or incapable of agreeing to a surgery and someone agreed upon my behalf w/o knowing my insurance company's rules/regs could I be held accountable?

And as far as rules/regulations in the contract.....you know damn well that NOBODY fully reads and understands all the legalities and potential loopholes in the law except the insurance company lawyers who draft the contracts.
0 Replies
 
 

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