IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

mysteryman wrote:

So,I will posit some questions about Edwards plan.

First of all,how are they gonna enforce it?
If its mandatory that everyone go to a Dr once a year,are they gonna have the medical police running around making sure everyone goes?

Hm.

Here, we have a system that works like that: if you're going to see your doctor for preventative thingies, it simply gets noted. You don't get charged for it, it's free.

Then, if a problem occurs (you get sick, you need treatment) and you've seen your doctor for yearly checkups, you pay less for the treatment. Might even be completely covered.

If you don't have a record of annual checkups, you pay more.

Seems to work.

mysteryman wrote:

Next, are you willing to allow some nameless, faceless political appointee somewhere access to your medical records, so they can make sure you went to a Dr?

No. Obviously not.

Here, only your doctor has your record (of checkups). If you want to switch your doctor, you get a signed record thingie and take it to your new doc.

(If you pay into any kind of health insurance, you get a card with a chip on it. There have been people proposing that the chip could be used to store patient data on it, too... It's currently only used to verify the printed data on the card. There's been a fierce opposition to all of that data storing stuff. I don't think it's going to happen soon. If at all.)

mysteryman wrote:

Next,what about those that cant go to a Dr?

Uh?

Three words: Universal. Health. Care.

mysteryman wrote:

They have no transportation or there is no Dr in their community, do those people get fined or arrested for not seeing a Dr?

Don't be silly. Sheesh.

mysteryman wrote:

Is the govt going to create a mandatory transportation program to make sure everyone see's a Dr?

Tsssss.... No.

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MEDICAL CHECKUPS
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is it really so different than the education efforts to keep young people from taking up smoking and get smokers to quit ?
we all know that some will take up smoking , others won't quit .
should we now say : " stop this nonsense program , some people are not listening , so get rid of it ! " .
imo it has reduced the number of smokers , so we are moving in the right direction , so let's keep moving ! .
i would say the same about checkups ; not everybody will have a checkup , but many of those who do have a checkup will live a healthier and longer life , and that's something to be encouraged !
it's of benefit to the individual and also of benefit to society - A WIN-WIN situation imo .
(is anyone losing anything in this process ?)
hbg

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Quote:

mysteryman wrote:
They have no transportation or there is no Dr in their community, do those people get fined or arrested for not seeing a Dr?

Quote:
oe : Don't be silly. Sheesh.

mysteryman wrote:
Is the govt going to create a mandatory transportation program to make sure everyone see's a Dr?

Quote:
oe : Tsssss.... No.

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to be fair to mm , one really cannot compare central europe with the U.S. and canada when it comes to having access to a medical care and transportation .
just speaking of our canadian natives , they often live far from any medical facilities and access to such facilities can be extremely difficult .
our local university hospital (in eastern ontario) has a special program to bring natives for certain treatments to the hospital by helicopter/airplane .
while more facilities are being established in remote areas - often staffed by a native nurse - , much more needs to be done to provide the native communities with better healthcare .
one of the major diseases ravaging many native communities is DIABETES - and much is being done to educate the natives about proper nutrition - but it's not sufficient yet . it'll probably take a few generations before they understand that they are able to help reduce this terrible disease .

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having said that , i would suggest it shows the URGENT need for even more health prevention measures for the population as a whole , and i certainly would NOT want to endorse a cutback in any measures that promote healthy living .
hbg

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What oe said.

Well, I remmber that in the old days the state run "prevention busses" fo a couple of things, touring especially in some rural regions - but big cities, too.

Now, various health organisations are offering such, espeically on "prevention days".

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Miller wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
Some people, especially those who do not want universal heath care, believe prevention is not worth the money spent.

That's really unfortunate isn't it, especially when you think of how many women are alive today, because of annual mammograms and how many men are alive today, because of annual prostate exams.

And how many people are dead because they went to the doctor without needing to?

Just a question, because how many thousands die because of wrong prescriptions, wrong treatments, and operations gone awry? You need to subtract those from however many lives are prolonged. I am not sure the answer is entirely clear?

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How does prevention work in the USA, okie? What is mad at check-ups? Thousands die afterwards? Shocked

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Walter, read the following. I am sure you've heard of this, but the reason I mention this is because I have known of several people that have died because of various types of mistakes. There is no way to know if those people would have died around the same time, sooner, or if they would live years later. We know for a fact that infections are a large problem in some hospitals, just one example. Note the headline says "A Leading Cause of Death." Everyone loves to trumpet prevention, but I would like to see some solid figures or solid proof of it. I am sure it works pretty good for some kinds of maladies, but I'm not so sure about others, and as I said, there is a downside possibility anytime you submit to any kind of treatment, as the negative possibilities and risks are always present.

http://www.cancure.org/medical_errors.htm

Medical Errors - A Leading Cause of Death

The JOURNAL of the AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION (JAMA) Vol 284, No 4, July 26th 2000 article written by Dr Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH, of the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health, shows that medical errors may be the third leading cause of death in the United States.

The report apparently shows there are 2,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery; 7000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals; 20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals; 80,000 deaths/year from infections in hospitals; 106,000 deaths/year from non-error, adverse effects of medications - these total up to 225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes which ranks these deaths as the # 3 killer. Iatrogenic is a term used when a patient dies as a direct result of treatments by a physician, whether it is from misdiagnosis of the ailment or from adverse drug reactions used to treat the illness. (drug reactions are the most common cause).

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That maybe true. But how is this related to checkups? To any checkups?

(If I hadn't insisted that my mother goes to her various check-ups - which are illness and age related any three months now - she wouldn't get various diets and physiotherapy twice weekly but perhaps be somwhere else by now. As well as she wouldn't get a reduced insurance rate.)

On the other hand: how many people die because they don't see a doctor?

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Just my own personal opinion and observation, but it seems like some people that are very into checkups and tests, often the doctors will start prescriptions that may lead to side effects, etc., which in turn leads to other problems. I have seen this happen. I am a firm believer that people should be very pro-active and people should know their own bodies and recognize when something is amiss, then go see the doctor, otherwise over testing, and overprescribing for every tiny problem is not always beneficial.

I am just pointing out that rampant tests and prevention may reach a point of diminishing returns, and there may be a downside. If you go to many doctors, they seem almost obliged to prescribe something or do something to you. Doctors feel like a failure if they tell you nothing is wrong, just like an auto mechanic will find something to replace if you take your car in, but it isn't always necessary or called for.

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Fine. So you certainly have a strong argument here to be against universal health care.

I personally like it that I have to pay less money for insurance.
And even more that I can actively reduce or minimze the risks of various illnesses ... getting worse, keep my teth, etc etc.

But that's just my opinion.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Fine. So you certainly have a strong argument here to be against universal health care.

I personally like it that I have to pay less money for insurance.
And even more that I can actively reduce or minimze the risks of various illnesses ... getting worse, keep my teth, etc etc.

But that's just my opinion.

I go to the doctor and dentist, but I don't beat a path to their door, Walter, unless I think I need something checked, a test done, etc. Sort of a mix of their advice and how I feel, but I don't go as often as they would want. The doctors work for us, not the other way around. Also, I don't think I need the government to tell me every move to make.

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You see, okie, that's the difference: here, of course doctors want such, too. But it's offered by the various health insurance fonds of our universal health care system: avoids them to spend more money.

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okie wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
Fine. So you certainly have a strong argument here to be against universal health care.

I personally like it that I have to pay less money for insurance.
And even more that I can actively reduce or minimze the risks of various illnesses ... getting worse, keep my teth, etc etc.

But that's just my opinion.

I go to the doctor and dentist, but I don't beat a path to their door, Walter, unless I think I need something checked, a test done, etc. Sort of a mix of their advice and how I feel, but I don't go as often as they would want. The doctors work for us, not the other way around. Also, I don't think I need the government to tell me every move to make.

Well, I think going to a checkup once a year is not exactly "beating a path to their door." In my opinion.

Also, it's not as much mandatory or the government telling you what to do as it is the "free market at work" (so you should really like it). See, if you drive reckless, cause lots of accidents, your car insurance premiums will go up. If you still want to keep your premiums as low as before, you might choose to opt for a plan where you'll have to pay a relatively high share yourself.

That's how checkups work here. Go see your dentist once a year for a checkup - pay less if you need something fixed (a lot will be completely covered). Don't go for checkups - pay more when you need him.

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okie wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
Fine. So you certainly have a strong argument here to be against universal health care.

I personally like it that I have to pay less money for insurance.
And even more that I can actively reduce or minimze the risks of various illnesses ... getting worse, keep my teth, etc etc.

But that's just my opinion.

I go to the doctor and dentist, but I don't beat a path to their door, Walter, unless I think I need something checked, a test done, etc. Sort of a mix of their advice and how I feel, but I don't go as often as they would want. The doctors work for us, not the other way around. Also, I don't think I need the government to tell me every move to make.

If you start having signs of either colon or prostate cancer, I'm sure you'll be beating a path to your doctor's door. But, it could be too late, for you.

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old europe wrote:

That's how checkups work here. Go see your dentist once a year for a checkup - pay less if you need something fixed (a lot will be completely covered). Don't go for checkups - pay more when you need him.

Actually, you CAN go there twice, "free" (=without paying any fee).

As mentioned above, (some) health insurance companies offer similar deals for other check-ups.

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<nods at Walter>

Was commenting on people who were, I guess, arguing along the lines that they couldn't possibly be bothered to see their doctor even once a year for checkup...

But checkups make sense. Which is I don't understand why people would argue that checkups and basic treatment shouldn't be covered by some kind of "universal" health care, and only treatment in some worst-case scenario should be paid for.

Seems to be wise to rather offer basic treatment and checkups free of charge, and prevent a condition that may afford more expensive treatment later.

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old europe wrote:

Which is I don't understand why people would argue that checkups and basic treatment shouldn't be covered by some kind of "universal" health care, and only treatment in some worst-case scenario should be paid for.

Might be it are those people, who don't bother if there garden hut with the swimming pool equipment burns down but only need a fire insurance for their $2 mio mansion?

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Miller wrote:

okie wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Fine. So you certainly have a strong argument here to be against universal health care.

I personally like it that I have to pay less money for insurance.
And even more that I can actively reduce or minimze the risks of various illnesses ... getting worse, keep my teth, etc etc.

But that's just my opinion.

I go to the doctor and dentist, but I don't beat a path to their door, Walter, unless I think I need something checked, a test done, etc. Sort of a mix of their advice and how I feel, but I don't go as often as they would want. The doctors work for us, not the other way around. Also, I don't think I need the government to tell me every move to make.

If you start having signs of either colon or prostate cancer, I'm sure you'll be beating a path to your doctor's door. But, it could be too late, for you.

People like okie will never understand the value of prevention, so trying to explain what universal health care is about will never penetrate. He believes his lifestyle is best.

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Regardless of how valuable "preventative maintenance" is... no one has bothered to explain how this gets paid for. I've posted a bunch of questions, all of which have been ignored but all of which are central to the issue.

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Quote:

Source: Center of Budget and Policy Priorities, report: Number and Percentage of Americans Who Are Uninsured Climbs Again: Poverty Edges Down but Remains Higher, and Median Income for Working-Age Households Remains Lower, than When Recession Hit Bottom in 2001

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IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

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