IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

parados is right that tests are a major scam to line the pockets of the people involved in them. The actual risk of a malpractice suit has been estimated as less than 1 in 1000, and that very small risk is what the insurance is for anyway, so we have doctors' skewed impression of risk involved here--further, when you probe why doctors actually do those tests, rather than just looking at the answer checked on some multiple choice questionnaire, you find that medical peer culture, where other doctors ridicule them as doing inadequate medicine if they don't order every conceivable test is a significant factor, as well as patient pressure--people come in essentially demanding particular tests for their problem, and as one doctor said, it's easier to spend five minutes and order the test rather than spending a half hour trying to convince them that they don't really need the test when they don't. "Defensive medicine" just isn't the simple thing superficialists think it is.

When all doctors are paid more or less the same, as they are here, the underserved, rural and small town areas are the choicest posts because their patients are a healthier and less complaining bunch and the views are nicer. They also command greater respect and recognition.

And the budget for the military is sold to the public as being for stopping the US, and us I hope, being over-run with hegemonists and for getting things needed to keep growth on track. So it isn't quite the same really.

The cost in this case has to be sold on some other basis and it is that the disagreement is about.

you, like most people, operate on the false assumption that most physicians get paid for ordering tests. that's not the case.

georgeob1 wrote:

That's a fairly all-inclusive assertion. Perhaps you would be prepared to back it up with some authoritative data.

Listen pot: When you back up your assertions, then you may ask kettle to back up his assertions.

MontereyJack wrote:

parados is right that tests are a major scam to line the pockets of the people involved in them. The actual risk of a malpractice suit has been estimated as less than 1 in 1000, and that very small risk is what the insurance is for anyway, so we have doctors' skewed impression of risk involved here--further, when you probe why doctors actually do those tests, rather than just looking at the answer checked on some multiple choice questionnaire, you find that medical peer culture, where other doctors ridicule them as doing inadequate medicine if they don't order every conceivable test is a significant factor, as well as patient pressure--people come in essentially demanding particular tests for their problem, and as one doctor said, it's easier to spend five minutes and order the test rather than spending a half hour trying to convince them that they don't really need the test when they don't. "Defensive medicine" just isn't the simple thing superficialists think it is.

you, like most people, operate on the false assumption that most physicians get paid for ordering tests. that's not the case.

sstainba wrote:

MontereyJack wrote:

parados is right that tests are a major scam to line the pockets of the people involved in them. The actual risk of a malpractice suit has been estimated as less than 1 in 1000, and that very small risk is what the insurance is for anyway, so we have doctors' skewed impression of risk involved here--further, when you probe why doctors actually do those tests, rather than just looking at the answer checked on some multiple choice questionnaire, you find that medical peer culture, where other doctors ridicule them as doing inadequate medicine if they don't order every conceivable test is a significant factor, as well as patient pressure--people come in essentially demanding particular tests for their problem, and as one doctor said, it's easier to spend five minutes and order the test rather than spending a half hour trying to convince them that they don't really need the test when they don't. "Defensive medicine" just isn't the simple thing superficialists think it is.

you, like most people, operate on the false assumption that most physicians get paid for ordering tests. that's not the case.

The doctors might not, but SOMEONE is getting paid to run those tests. In many cases, it's the hospital or group that the docs belong to.... so ordering more tests in many cases does directly benefit the 'company' even if it doesn't go to the bottom line of the doc himself.

Cycloptichorn

Your assertion borders on paranoia. Yes, someone gets paid for the tests. However, the idea that the physicians order tests for the purpose of generating profit for whoever is completely without merit.

Quote:

Your assertion borders on paranoia. Yes, someone gets paid for the tests. However, the idea that the physicians order tests for the purpose of generating profit for whoever is completely without merit.

I do not believe it is completely without merit.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/431907/doctors_order_more_tests_when_they.html

Apparently there is at least some evidence that this practice takes place. So, your accusation of 'paranoia' is false. I do not claim a 'conspiracy' of some sort on the part of doctors to run endless tests. But it is natural human behavior for groups to engage in behaviors which maximize their profits...

Cycloptichorn

The vast majority of physicians are employees of hospital systems.

Physicians and surgeons held about 661,400 jobs in 2008; approximately 12 percent were self-employed. About 53 percent of wage"and-salary physicians and surgeons worked in offices of physicians, and 19 percent were employed by hospitals. Others practiced in Federal, State, and local governments, educational services, and outpatient care centers.
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm

Quote:

The vast majority of physicians are employees of hospital systems.

I don't know where you get your information.

In 2008, only 19 percent of physicians and surgeons were employed by hospitals.

Quote:

Physicians and surgeons held about 661,400 jobs in 2008; approximately 12 percent were self-employed. About 53 percent of wage"and-salary physicians and surgeons worked in offices of physicians, and 19 percent were employed by hospitals. Others practiced in Federal, State, and local governments, educational services, and outpatient care centers.
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm

Approximately 65% of physicians work in private practice settings, either alone or in groups.

Are people forgetting that physicians in private practice are running a business? They will do everything under the sun to increase profits and income.

firefly wrote:

Quote:

The vast majority of physicians are employees of hospital systems.

I don't know where you get your information.

In 2008, only 19 percent of physicians and surgeons were employed by hospitals.

Quote:

Physicians and surgeons held about 661,400 jobs in 2008; approximately 12 percent were self-employed. About 53 percent of wage"and-salary physicians and surgeons worked in offices of physicians, and 19 percent were employed by hospitals. Others practiced in Federal, State, and local governments, educational services, and outpatient care centers.
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm

Approximately 65% of physicians work in private practice settings, either alone or in groups.

That information is somewhat misleading. Many "physician offices" and "clinics" are actually owned an operated by hospital systems or healthcare organizations.

Hyperbole.

georgeob1: That's a fairly all-inclusive assertion. Perhaps you would be prepared to back it up with some authoritative data.

Listen pot: When you back up your assertions, then you may ask kettle to back up his assertions.

I don't think that data is misleading. Most physicians are in private practice, either self-employed or employed by other physicians.

A doctor who works for a healthcare organization is still working in the private sector, and many of those are self-employed independent contractors.

Doctors who work in a clinic that is part of a hospital's outpatient services would be part of the 19% of physicians and surgeons employed by hospitals.

Most doctors work in some sort of private practice setting, including large group practices or private "clinics". Medical practice in the U.S. is very much a business. Doctors also own many private hospitals and nursing homes, outpatient radiology centers, sports medicine centers, cardiology testing centers, etc.

Quote:

Hyperbole.

How so? firefly's statement is quite a flat and obvious statement of the position. It is reasonable to assume that "everything under the sun" is limited to the practice of medicine and does not include criminal activities such as those being alleged in a recent case and which are not conducive to running a business.

One might easily expand it on a scale of hyperbole which would reach zones I doubt you could take in Irishk.

The gist of her remark is somewhat understated I would have thought.