65
   

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 10:21 am
@maporsche,
I will always come to the defense of people who are ill treated.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 10:22 am
Any one know the origin of the tort? I would have thought it an ancient tradition but, apparently, it grew in response to the dangers posed by working on the railroad.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 10:40 am
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

So your claim is that defensive medicine does not exist?


I agree with MJ - it's overstated.

Hell, just think. If YOU were a doctor, would you claim that the things which could possibly cost you money - such as lawsuits - lead to extra money spent on your part? Of course you would. It's human nature.

Cycloptichorn
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 10:46 am
@Cycloptichorn,
A friend of mine was charged in a malpractice suit. I was so embarrassed to hear his name on the morning news. His wife told me that he was rather afraid to go to work but so found that no one mentioned the suit.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 10:54 am
@plainoldme,
Whatever POM....I didn't ill treat anyone. If you'd like to argue, lets take it to PM.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 11:56 am
@MontereyJack,
One main effect of high malpractice insurance premiums is to decrease the amount of income a physician is able to pocket. As a group, physicians in the United States are accustomed to enjoying a high standard of living. As the costs of practicing medicine increase, physicians will increase their fees accordingly, simply to maintain a high level of income. If malpractice premiums increase in one geographic area, physicians may opt to move to another part of the country where the cost of such premiums is significantly lower. Or, they may opt to go into a medical specialty where the cost of malpractice insurance is much lower. Again, these decisions would be motivated by a desire to maintain a higher level of income. Ultimately, these choices by physicians can affect availability of medical care in certain geographic areas, but there is no reason to assume that they affect the overall quality of medical care which is actually delivered.

The 2007 Merrit-Hawkins salary survey determined that the average salary for a neurosurgeon is about $520,000. Those with experience, who own a private practice, can make $700, 000 to a million dollars a year. Even if the neurosurgeon pays $200,000 a year in malpractice premiums, that physician is still going to have a quite substantial profit margin.

As long as we regard physicians as being innately entitled to make large sums of money, a big chunk of the costs of medical care will go toward funding physicians very comfortable lifestyles, including expensive travel and vacations, vacation homes, expensive recreational pursuits, private schools for their children, and on and on. But the length or cost of the graduate training in most areas of medicine is often no longer than it is in many other professions, professions which do not command salaries anywhere near as high as those of physicians. Because we, as a society, have decided to reward our doctors handsomely, we get left holding some pretty hefty bills. Physicians as a group are a very privileged class of people. I do not bemoan the high cost of their malpractice premiums, it simply comes with the territory of being a doctor, and that territory often comes with a lot of other perks (including all kinds of lucrative entanglements with pharmaceutical companies). If high malpractice premiums drive some out of the practice of medicine, perhaps others will be attracted to medicine for reasons other than the desire to make a great deal of money. Perhaps we will ultimately wind up with better doctors. Perhaps we will learn to demand better doctors--doctors who actually take some time with their patients, who really listen to their patients, and who take the time to clearly explain things and answer questions. Informed patients, who are fully aware of the risks of treatments and medications beforehand, and who agree to take those risks, are much less likely to sue for malpractice later, or to prevail if they do bring a suit or charge.

I would suggest that really good doctors don't need to practice defensive medicine, by ordering unnecessary tests. Really good doctors know when a test is necessary to assure proper diagnosis or treatment. If another test or procedure wouldn't alter the diagnosis or treatment of a patient, a really good doctor won't order it. I say this based on my experience with some really good doctors. These same doctors don't write prescriptions for essentially unnecessary medications, their patients tend to be on the smallest number of medications possible, in the lowest possible dosages. Not only does this reduce the number of possible side-effects, it also helps to protect the functioning of their patient's liver and kidneys and heart--all of which can be adversely affected by medications, even common medications. They therefore help to protect their patient's long term health, which can substantially reduce the costs of later medical care.

In my experience, really good doctors are decidedly in the minority. Far too many people go to doctors who hand them prescriptions for every minor complaint, prescriptions the patient does not medically need and which may have no effectiveness, but which are faster and easier for the doctor than actually talking to the patient about lifestyle changes, or behavioral treatments, or even alternative therapies. Patients not only willingly gobble down these pills, because that's easier for them, they also willingly go for all sorts of unnecessary tests, as long as they don't have to pay for them out-of-pocket. Perhaps if doctors had to medically justify every prescription they write, and every test they ordered, to either the patient or the insurance carrier, we'd see an immediate reduction in these practices. But then we'd also need more savvy patients, patients who could practice defensive consumerism about their medical care.

Medicine is not a profession which polices itself well. Doctors often look the other way when colleagues practice sloppy medicine, do unnecessary procedures, prescribe unnecessary medications, and even when there is suspicion of alcohol or drug abuse on the part of a colleague. Doctors do not have to be board certified in a medical specialty to call themselves a cardiologist, psychiatrist, plastic surgeon, or just about any other medical specialist you can think of. Any licensed physician can claim to be a specialist in a particular area, and it's the consumer beware. Why does the medical profession allow this? Why do consumers accept it? Thank goodness there are now state websites where you can check on whether your physician is board certified in a particular medical specialty--but that's not thanks to the medical profession, which tends to not inform consumers about such things. These same websites also often provide info on whether a doctor has been disciplined or had a large malpractice payout. Again, no thanks to the medical profession.

Doctors just aren't demanding a high enough standard of patient care from their colleagues, and sometimes even from themselves. If they did that more often, we'd see a drop in malpractice claims and payouts. Unfortunately, malpractice claims may be the most effective way to root out some of the really bad doctors, given the present state of affairs. But many, many, other mediocre or poor doctors just fly below the malpractice radar because they haven't significantly injured anyone--yet. We won't really reform health care until we start demanding that the medical profession starts policing itself better and requiring a higher standard of patient care and a higher standard of continuing medical education for all doctors. We should also demand that some ethical controls be placed on the often unholy alliance between big pharma and the medical profession.

So while we consider caps on malpractice awards, or tort reform, or the high costs of medical care, I'd also suggest we look at the way medicine is practiced in this country, the actual quality of the medical care we receive, and what we, as consumers should be demanding from physicians. We took the first step toward providing everyone with some sort of medical coverage. Now we have to start looking at the quality of medical care that people will be getting for their money.



0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 12:18 pm
gungasnake, surprisingly, had the right idea for once. The number of doctors is kept artificially low by the medical profession. There could easily be several times the number of competent doctors as we have now if medical school admissions were opened up, with no apparent drop in the quality of candidates, and if procedures similar to those of the armed services, which pay all or a lot of the fees if the student commits to a period serving as a military doctor--do the same thing for people who agree to go into primary care and serve in underserved, rural and small town areas for a certain period of time.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 12:51 pm
@MontereyJack,
The French had a system like that when Flaubert was writing Madame Bovary. They might still have it now for all I know.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 12:59 pm
@MontereyJack,
When all doctors are paid more or less the same, as they are here, the underserved, rural and small town areas are the choicest posts because their patients are a healthier and less complaining bunch and the views are nicer. They also command greater respect and recognition.

And the budget for the military is sold to the public as being for stopping the US, and us I hope, being over-run with hegemonists and for getting things needed to keep growth on track. So it isn't quite the same really.

The cost in this case has to be sold on some other basis and it is that the disagreement is about.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 01:14 pm
@spendius,
It may seem strange to you then, but rural areas are not considered desireable to most doctors in the US. Possibly the lack of strong medical infrastructure, possibly other reasons. For whatever reason, our rural areas are often underserved, all else being equal.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 01:22 pm
@spendius,
The rural communities have suffered from a lack of medical and dental care for a long time, which makes the work of doctors more difficult. Doctors often do not want to live in isolated communities without cultural and social advantages, even with adequate financial compensation.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 01:53 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
I'm sure the Democrats are betting on a large drop in the public outrage between now and November. That is possible, though not at all certain.


A few partisan hacks stirring the hate & smear pot does not equate to "public outrage."

Quote:
What will this bill do? The biggest "potential" change would affect senior citizens, since the Medicare reimbursement cuts provided for in the bill would, if ever implemented, cause many more doctors than already do to refuse to see Medicare patients.


Fearmongering. Old people will suffer...potentially.


Quote:
These Medicare reimbursement cuts, however, will never be implemented. Projected Medicare cuts were necessary only to fool people into thinking that the bill would not blow up the federal budget (these "cuts" pay for the new expenditures). The Democrats have no real intention of seeing millions of senior citizens turn against them. They'll just waive the cuts and raise taxes further when the time comes.


Fearmongering. Maybe old people won't suffer, but our deficit will.

Our national deficit doubled from 5 trillion to over 10 trillion on the Republican watch. Partisan rhetoric over budgetary concerns and/or fiscal responsibility is disingenuous.


Quote:
It will be very interesting to see what happens when the public discovers what this bill actually does and didn't do.


The bill is a starting point. It opens a door that was nailed shut for two centuries. It's healthcare reform version 101. It will be altered and improved over the next several decades as we work and struggle to free ourselves from the strangle hold that health insurance companies currently have on everyone in this country. Reform comes one step at a time.

Quote:
This bill is just a ruse to mask the eventual creation of a national health service like the ones in England and Canada. Then your quality of care will plummet.


More fearmongering. We have a healthcare crisis in this country. With many, many millions in this country having no care at all because they can't afford insurance or because their insurance companies deny coverage when they need their insurance the most, your prediction that the "quality" of the care will plummet is laughable. It's the present healthcare crisis and quality of care that already plummeted into the depths of hell that made entry into the arena of reform possible.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 01:56 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

That's a fairly all-inclusive assertion. Perhaps you would be prepared to back it up with some authoritative data.


Listen pot: When you back up your assertions, then you may ask kettle to back up his assertions. Smile
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 01:56 pm
@plainoldme,
There are two errors . . . the more serious being the use of "was" when s/he meant "were."

Quote:
I'd get fired in a heartbeat from my job if my analysis was as shoddy.


Is the one in bold the offending 'was', POM?

What's the other error?

I'm pretty sure that Map is a male.

maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 02:00 pm
@JTT,
I am male. I apologize to everyone for my poor grammer. It is unacceptable, and I know I'm the only one with these types of problems. I'm destroying A2K with my ignorance.
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 02:07 pm
Here's a recent state supreme court opinion that ruled that statutory caps on noneconomic damages are unconstitutional:

http://www.gasupreme.us/sc-op/pdf/s09a1432.pdf
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 02:08 pm
@maporsche,
Quote:
I apologize to everyone for my poor grammer.


Don't jump the gun, Map. I actually looked again, admittedly I didn't get my fine tooth comb out this time either but I still haven't seen any grammar errors.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 02:11 pm
@JTT,
Damn, my spelling too.....I'll need to remember, "Grammar".
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 02:22 pm
@maporsche,
Quote:


Democracy in America
Health-care reform
So much for tyranny

Mar 23rd 2010, 22:21 by M.S.
USA TODAY/Gallup just released the first poll on the popularity of the health-care reform bill (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2010-03-23-health-poll-favorable_N.htm) since it was voted into law this weekend.

Americans by 9 percentage points have a favorable view of the health care overhaul that President Obama signed into law Tuesday, a USA TODAY/Gallup Poll finds, a notable turnaround from surveys before the vote that showed a plurality against it. By 49%-40% those surveyed say it was "a good thing" rather than a bad one that Congress passed the bill. Half describe their reaction in positive terms, as "enthusiastic" or "pleased," while about four in 10 describe it in negative ways, as "disappointed" or "angry."

This was fairly predictable. The American people did not have clearly formed opinions on the content of this bill. They had vague opinions on the bill that were heavily influenced by the media narrative surrounding the development and legislative process of the bill's progress. Over the weekend, that narrative went from one of quagmire, self-recrimination among Democrats and dire warnings among Republicans, to one of accomplishment, celebrations among Democrats, and dire warnings among Republicans. It would have been very surprising if that shift in narratives hadn't produced a sizable shift in public opinion, and since the bill was only narrowly unpopular before the vote, it's now narrowly popular.

Moreover, Republicans were always, quite correctly, clear-eyed about the fact that the public's opinion of the bill would be influenced by the political narrative as much as by its content. Ezra Klein recalls
"What I tried to do and what John [Boehner] did very skillfully, as well, was to unify our members in opposition to it. Had we not done that, I don't think the public would have been as appalled as they became over the fact that the government was now running banks, insurance companies, car companies, taking over the student-loan business, which they're going to try to do in this health care bill, and taking over one-sixth of the economy. Public opinion can change, but it is affected by what elected officials do."

Mr Klein sums up: "Put simply, if Republicans had worked with Democrats on health-care reform, the bill would not have been as unpopular." Now we appear to be finding that with the bill having passed, it may not be unpopular at all. People have spent a lot of time fretting about the supposedly undemocratic implications of passing a bill that the majority of Americans, in polls, said they didn't like. Those people can calm down now, I guess.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2010/03/health-care_reform_4/print


spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 02:38 pm
@firefly,
I have warned George, firefly, that the Republicans were talking themselves into the political wilderness. They have too many people on Ignore and spend too much time bouncing the same ideas off each other.
0 Replies
 
 

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