IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

@slkshock7,

slkshock7 wrote:

If CI's predictions are correct then repeal is certainly possible. You know that the Repubs will not repeal the whole thing, but only the most unpopular parts i.e., Medicare cuts, individual mandates, etc., and of course all the bribes for Senate votes.

Wrong; they won't repeal any of it at all. You haven't really thought this through very well.

If you repeal the Medicare cuts, you have to find hundreds of billions of additional dollars of funding. The Republicans boxed themselves in with their anti-debt talk on this issue; they can't turn around and vote for unfunded mandates without making complete hypocrites of themselves, the media would have a field day with the youtube clips.

The 'sensible republican plan' that was presented was a joke; there was no actual data or analysis which showed that it would have accomplished any of the goals, namely, to expand health care availability while containing costs. Nothing in the Republican plan did either of those things.

What do you think they are going to campaign on? Bringing back Recission? Bringing back pre-existing conditions? Bringing back unlimited profits for the Health Insurance industry? I don't understand how you can think that these are winning positions.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

I stand corrected then. Thanks!

0 Replies

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

woiyo wrote:
You will find that in those countries you listed, the cost ito the taxpayers is exorbatabt andthe quality if care if less than in our current system.

That certainly comes as a surprise to this citizen of Germany, "one of the countries you listed" as you put it. I have been treated under the German system for 37 of my almost 41 years.

There's a lot of things that are great about the US, a lot of reasons why I'm staying in the US on an immigration visa. But your healthcare system isn't one of them. In my own experience, it's mediocre and overpriced by the standards of Western Europe.

I doubt it, Thomas. Our health care system is not inferior to any other one in the world, bar none. But one of the reasons why costs have soared here in the U.S. in the last few decades is due to government intervention into the market, in the form of Medicare and Medicaid for example. Anytime government meddles with free markets, there are unintended consequences. So instead of fixing the causes of the problems we have now, we are instead reinforcing the causes of the problems. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize the total folly of that.

"Medical Inflation. Health care costs over the past 40 years have risen as the proportion of health care paid for by third parties has increased. Prior to the advent of Medicare and Medicaid in 1965, health care spending never exceeded 6 percent of gross domestic product. Today it is 16 percent. These two government programs unleashed a torrent of new spending and led to rising health care prices. For instance, a recent study by Amy Finkelstein of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology found that half the growth in health care expenditures was due to Medicare. There has also been an increase in tax-subsidized employer spending on health care. These two factors, rather than the cost of new technology and drugs, explain why health care costs outpace inflation."
http://healthcare.ncpa.org/commentaries/why-are-health-costs-rising

1 Reply

@okie,

A comment on my previous post, which mentions "tax-subsidized employer spending on health care." That point is an excellent point which has often been overlooked. For example, if the government began to subsidize employer spending on homeowners insurance or auto insurance for its employees, what would happen to those industries as well? I believe the answer should be obvious. I believe it would cause an unprecedented rise in costs for those types of insurance, along with additional problems and nuances arising within those industries that would complicate their availability and quality, along with the price. Or what if employers subsidized lawn care for their employees, and the government provided tax breaks? Let your imagination be your guide in terms of how screwy things would become simply to get your lawn mowed from then on.

I think that John McCain did in fact propose making employer benefits like paying for health insurance a taxable item, and even conservatives attacked him for that, but it made sense to me at the time as a simple suggestion to make the policy more fair. After all, if an employee is compensated, it is income, whether it is in cash or a subsidization of something else, it should make no difference, it is still compensation, which is income, which should be taxed by the income tax system.

1 Reply

The Republicans have lost a battle, but they have not yet lost the war to allow the Democrats to destroy health care in America. Public opinion is still on the side of reason, on the side of the Republicans in Congress. Do not lose heart, guys, keep up the fight.

"Most voters (54%) also believe they personally will be worse off if the health care plan passes. Just 25% think they will be better off."

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

1 Reply

@okie,

Public opinion will count at election time. It will take five years to see what we have just done. If we are paying a ton of money for a band-aid for our broken down medical system it will be the Dems who pay dearly for this bit of lawmaking. If on the other-hand it is then seen as a great thing it will be the GOP who pays.

Or maybe it is more in the middle, and people look back at these last few months of partisan politics and inability of the parties to work together as evidence that Washington is broken, and they both will pay.

We will know soon enough.

0 Replies

@okie,

Doesn't make sense to me. What would be the point is subsidizing something that is already required either by law or finance companies?

0 Replies

@Thomas,

And your point?

Just because it may work well in Germany does not mean anything to me.

2 Replies

@woiyo,

I can't reply for Thomas.

And certainly how a system works elsewhere is no point for you.

I just want to add that it worked for more than 100 years and in some couple of dozens of countries, not just in Germany.
But because the system exists and covers everybody for so many decades and generations none of the industrialised countries doesn't have a debate about it as such.

0 Replies

Okie, Medicare and Medicaid came along because there were masses of people who were dying due to lack of medical care. Without universal, other countries would have had to create something similar, or leave masses of people uncovered.

If anything, those programs have kept medical costs down. They reimburse much less to doctors, hospitals, etc., than these providers charge. Moreover, private insurance companies have followed their lead in paying much less, sometimes even less than Medicare and Medicaid reimbursements.

Thus, it is a joke to say that those government programs drove up medical costs.

2 Replies

@Advocate,

Trying to talk sense with people who are opposed to universal health care is a losing battle somewhat similar to their push for more tax cuts for the wealthy as our deficit continues to grow. They "think" it's about the redistribution of wealth, because that's what they've been told.

Actually, it's about national security. The health of our citizens is more important than fighting wars half way across the world, because without good health, our country cannot compete in the world marketplace. It's somewhat similar to education; without our educational system, our country would never have achieved superpower economic status. Spending money for the whole of our country on education is important for our national security.

Our country represents only five percent of the world population; we are not the world police. Simple logistics should tell anyone with any brains that we cannot continue to support wars halfway across the world that others are not interested in supporting. World security belongs to the world community.

0 Replies

Anybody have a link to the bill that was actually passed in the Senate? I've looked in various places including the 2074 page bill located here and duplicated on my Senator Warner's web site here.

Both my Senators are claiming to be disappointed but still voted for the bill after inclusion of certain amendments they were pushing. Sen Warner actually sent me copies of the amendments that he said he'd successfully had entered into the final bill that passed on Dec 24th. However, when I try to find those amendments in the bill linked to above, I cannot find them. I've searched against the Sec number provided (3601-3614, 3621-3625, and 3631-3632) by the Senator as well as trying to find by searches of the actual text, without success. Just called Warner's office and asked one of his staff to provide me the specifics, but curious if I'm misreading this long, boring and confusing bill or if Warner and Webb are lying thru their teeth.

1 Reply

@slkshock7,

Never mind...you have to look at the Manager's Amendment, not the bill "that was introduced"...mea culpa...

1 Reply

Quote:

13 state AGs threaten suit over health care deal (AP)
Republican attorneys general in 13 states say congressional leaders must remove Nebraska's political deal from the federal health care reform bill or face legal action, according to a letter provided to The Associated Press Wednesday.

2 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

I should certainly hope so. Imagine our Senators being so easily and so openly bribeable.

0 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

right --- he gets to save face with his constituents by showing he tried to get them some extras, but I think it will end up on the cutting room floor. It's just politics. Unfortunately, it's politics as usual.

0 Replies

@woiyo,

woiyo wrote:

And your point?

My point was that you had provided false facts in support of your conclusions. To recapitulate, you claimed:

earlier, woiyo made a factual claim and wrote:

You will find that in those countries you listed, the cost ito the taxpayers is exorbatabt andthe quality if care if less than in our current system.

... and I responded:

Thomas wrote:

That certainly comes as a surprise to this citizen of Germany, "one of the countries you listed" as you put it.

So in at least one of the countries I had listed, the factual claim you had made is in utter conflict with reality, as experienced by the people who live there. That was my point.

woiyo wrote:

Just because it may work well in Germany does not mean anything to me.

As Walter correctly correctly points out, no kind of evidence appears to mean anything to you. But perhaps you can tell me what Walter couldn't: If we assume, for the sake of the argument, that you are wrong and we are right -- what kind of evidence would persuade you of it?

0 Replies

@slkshock7,

Quote:

Never mind...you have to look at the Manager's Amendment, not the bill "that was introduced"...mea culpa...

My preferred method is to go directly through the Senate's website. All you need to do is to click "votes" and select the bill I want -- in this case, H.R. 3590 as Amended; Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. If the bill hadn't been voted on yet, you'd have to go to "active legislation" and check it out there.

Either way, going through the Senate's website is a simple and straightforward process to get at recently discussed legislation.

0 Replies

What a motherfu*ker.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100106/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_overhaul

Quote:

WASHINGTON " The White House was put on the defensive Wednesday after President Barack Obama pushed congressional leaders to fast-track health care legislation behind closed doors despite his campaign promises of an open process.

1 Reply

@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

Thus, it is a joke to say that those government programs drove up medical costs.

What I think is that you are mighty naive if you think government subsidization of goods and services for citizens do not drive up the costs of those goods and services.

0 Replies

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know