IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

@H2O MAN,

H2O MAN wrote:

roger wrote:

eliminate the ones who receive expensive treatment and don't even pretend to pay

The late Ted Kennedy comes to mind.

I do wish you would quote at least the full sentence. This kind of sounds like I want to shoot everyone who is both sick and broke.

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@roger,

roger wrote:

What you gotta do is hope that mandatory insurance will eliminate the ones who receive expensive treatment and don't even pretend to pay.

Now for what I really expect; there are going to be many levels of acceptable insurance and the lowest ones will only be bought to satisfy the law. Many of those forced into them are going to be crushed, even by the lowest premiums. They better hope they don't get sick or injured, too. The copays and deductables are going to eat them alive. Those are only my own opinions.

I'd say you have this exactly right. I would even be in agreement with Maporche on this one, were I not looking a couple of moves ahead. I predict:
1. Universal Insurance will prove disastrously expensive and dreadfully harmful to our economy. Lack of a public option sucks, but will only prove to accelerate the demise of our broken system.

2. Emergency aid bills to assist the poor and lower middle class will be hastily thrown together in a futile attempt to preserve the notion of universal healthcare.

3. Eventually, people will get a community clue and realize that a single payer system makes more sense than mandating guaranteed private profit at the point of a government gun. Shouldn't be too difficult of a sell, when those who contribute the least realize they can shift a goodly portion of the burden onto those who contribute more. I suspect, they may even get out and vote.

Unfair? Maybe on the surface and especially to those just over the middleclass hump. A broader view however, will reveal that those who are actually a net drain on the system already have some of the best healthcare money can buy (Title 19 coverage ain't no joke!)... and in fact the people who are suffering the most under both our current system and this new system are those who have struggled to just barely get their heads out of the public trough, only to realize that the somewhat higher earnings of a valiant effort to earn their own lot in life fall short of equaling the overall value of not trying at all.

This IS the definitive cause of the class divide, and it is precisely the greed of the majority who doesn't wish to take care of these 2nd tier citizens that causes so very many to choose to remain on the first tier. Remove the veritable punishments for climbing out of poverty and watch in amazement how many people choose to do so.

Single payer could be the first giant step towards eliminating the disastrous policies of having steep cutoffs for aid to the (2nd) poorest among us. Consider what the poor might do if we actually allowed them to have their government cake and earn their private cake too! Now, we already know that a safety net is necessary and I think few people would really, willingly, yank these programs in favor of watching their fellow citizens starve or go without basic healthcare and other human needs. The solution is quite simple, really: Virtually everyone from the bottom echelon, third generation welfare case, all the way up to the CEO of Microsoft would like to earn more money, right? Drumroll please.....

Let them! Offer the most basic benefits of social welfare to virtually everyone, and eliminate the veritable punishment for EARNING money, or at least taper it off so slowly to cease the effect of punishment as those climbing the rungs do so. This creates an environment that rewards production from top to bottom, not unlike the days before we figured out we needed a safety net.
4. Watch the economy soar!

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@OCCOM BILL,

To piggy-back on O'Bill's post: Insurance companies will make a killing, because premiums will continue to increase, and they'll still deny many people insurance if they have a pre-existing ailment of one kind or another - or charge such high premiums that they will forgo buying insurance. Congress still hasn't figured out how to implement savings into the system.

There is no way any private insurance can cover everybody at lower premiums if everybody gets a cadillac plan. It doesn't need to be calculated by the CBO to arrive at that conclusion.

So the 64-thousand dollar question is, who's buying and who's paying?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

this is going to hurt the efforts to pass this bill I think

Quote:

I have worked for health-care reform all my political life. In my home state of Vermont, we have accomplished universal health care for children younger than 18 and real insurance reform -- which not only bans discrimination against preexisting conditions but also prevents insurers from charging outrageous sums for policies as a way of keeping out high-risk people. I know health reform when I see it, and there isn't much left in the Senate bill. I reluctantly conclude that, as it stands, this bill would do more harm than good to the future of America.

The writer is a former chairman of the Democratic National Committee and was governor of Vermont from 1991 to 2002.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/16/AR2009121601906.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

1 Reply

@OCCOM BILL,

You probably have it tabbed, Obama's entire game is to break the current system, triggering a demand for single payer universal Obama care. I never trusted the man, and this only continues to confirm why, he is entirely about taking over our freedoms and liberty.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawk, That's what I've been saying all along; we haven't seen any savings from the health plan being developed by congress. They keep talking about adding benefits, but they still haven't told us how all this is going to be paid for. Cyclo says it'll be paid for from taxing the wealthy, but that can't be true while our country's deficit continues to grow. We can't add another benefit without somebody paying for it, and congress still hasn't figured out who's paying both the increased debt and for all the 30-million more people they want to insure. Has anyone seen any numbers concerning how they plan to save cost?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Sure have. Depending on where you look, they will either take 340 billion or 500 billion from Medicare over the next 10 years. Even under Obama, that's a pretty good chunk of money. Best of all, NOBODY'S BENEFITS WILL BE CUT. Except maybe yours and mine, and a few other unfortunates.

1 Reply

If even two Senate Dems agree with Dowd this this is over

Quote:

Unlike many other pundits and political experts in both parties, I think that passage of a bill by the Democrats at this point will be politically damaging to both the president and congressional Democrats. Conversely, defeat of the legislation is much more likely to hurt Republicans in Congress.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/16/AR2009121601880.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

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@okie,

okie wrote:

You probably have it tabbed, Obama's entire game is to break the current system, triggering a demand for single payer universal Obama care. I never trusted the man, and this only continues to confirm why, he is entirely about taking over our freedoms and liberty.

I wish! Unfortunately, Obama has never advocated single payer. I tend to agree with you though that he secretly wants it. (Crosses fingers!)

1 Reply

@roger,

roger, Medicare payments are already below what private insurance pays, and many doctors and hospitals are saying they will no longer add more patients as Medicare cuts their fees. Now, picture adding 30 million more patients to their load, and what can we expect to see?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

I know, and I've already mentioned that. My primary care doc charges $137.00 for a routine office visit. For Medicare patients, he is limited to $88.00. Some doctors in this area refuse existing patients when they go on Medicare. Others, like mine accept Medicare for existing patients only. In spite of what Green Witch reports from her area, there are simply no doctors in Farmington accepting new Medicare patients.

You may not have noticed with the Plan C that you have, but Medicare doesn't really do much at all. Anytime I have a claim, I get a letter advising me of the total charge, what they are paying, and how much is being deducted from my SS check. Fine. That letter does not come from Medicare. It comes from some outfit called CMS, which is under contract with Medicare. Monday, I noticed the insurance information on the form at the optomologist's office. That is another outfit under contract. Seems the government has decided it is more cost effective (efficient) to contract out everything we always thought they were doing. Even the bureaucracy knows it is not up to scratch, but still they want to take on more.

So, yes. The plan is to cut medicare by 350 to 500 billion over the next ten years just at the time the pig in the python (baby boomers) hit the system. All this while adding maybe 30 million new patients. Me an you together aren't good enough at the bookwork to make this one work.

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@roger,

Quote:

The average doctors’ office visit/consultation is about $58. Not far off from a $40 co-pay. And the annual savings on my health insurance policy with no co-pay is huge. What if that 34 year old co-pay type policy holder doesn’t go to the doctor all year? That’s right. You’re paying at least 25% more for something you never used. Kind of like that new treadmill/clothes rack you got at Costco.

http://www.mattsinsurance4ca.com/blog/tag/co-pay/

I see the $60 national average in several places on the web. Why are you paying $137, at the very highest end of the national range?

I see that the average doc/patient face time is now below 9 minutes per visit, do you want to do the ugly math on what your doctor time is costing on an hourly basis?

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

Posts Tagged ‘Co-Pay’
Co-Pays are Overrated on California PPO Health Plans
Thursday, August 21st, 2008

Now, that quote is the headline from your link. It refers to PPO Health Plans, which are private insurance plans allowed by Medicare. Not all doctors participate. In my area, there are exactly two, one of whom is going to is never going to get his hands on my body. I don't know the other.

He speaks of a $40.00 copay. What the hell is that all about? My copay on an office visit is $17.60. I had laser surgery for glaucoma last week. My copay was ninety some dollars. Copays for followup office have never exceeded $20.00. Today's copay was $13.00. This is all under Medicare Part B, with no additional coverage of any sort. Somebody around here doesn't know what he is talking about, and his name is not Roger.

Medicare pays 80% of a doctor's billings. Why on earth would someone purchase insurance from this guy so that a $58.00 office visit carries a $40.00 copay. I have an idea. The guy is a super slick salesman. He tells people it is good insurance, they believe him, and defend their stupid decision with their last breath.

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@hawkeye10,

http://www.ahrq.gov/news/nn/nn042507.htm

Quote:

AHRQ also found that:

•The average expense for a physician's office visit was $155. However, the average varies by type of physician. For primary care physicians"general practice, family medicine, internal medicine and pediatric physicians"the average was about $100, which was less than half the $232 average cost of visiting a cardiologist, the $210 average cost of seeing an orthopedist, or the $206 average cost of seeing an ophthalmologist.

Hawkeye, I don't have any idea what part of the internet you have been browsing, but this .gov site is the first one that came up with my search string. $155.00 doesn't round to anything like your $58.00. Did you ask for average costs in Somalia, or what?

1 Reply

@roger,

roger wrote:

Hawkeye, I don't have any idea what part of the internet you have been browsing, but this .gov site is the first one that came up with my search string. $155.00 doesn't round to anything like your $58.00. Did you ask for average costs in Somalia, or what?

I don't know the average costs in Somalia, but about $70 is the highest you (= your insurance company, no matter if private or mandatory) pays for a short visit (15 mins) and two prescriptions at your family doctor/GP/internist.

(Well, you have to pay 10€ at the doctor's practise any 3 months, and perhaps up to 10€ for a prescription at the pharmacy.)

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@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

Unfortunately, Obama has never advocated single payer.

Really?

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@roger,

roger, There's a very revealing article in today's WSJ. It addresses all the lies Obama has been spewing about "it won't cost a dime more." It's written by Tom Coburn, a practicing physician for 25 years.

The current Senate bill, sections 3403 and 2021, empowers Medicare to deny treatment based on cost. A Medicare Advisory Board created by the bill will have total control and unaccountable to anybody - even congress, and they will expand rationing of services and drugs. Section 6301 of the bill creates what is called "comparative research effectiveness research (CER) programs as "rationing commissions." Another section, 2713, (on page 17) that "health insurance plans shall provide coverages for services approved by the task force. This is where government asserts power over the physician and their patients.

The bill will extend Medicaid eligibility to 133% of the poverty level individuals that will lead to rationing. In Maryland, 17,000 Medicaid patients are currently on a "waiting list" for medical services.

The mandatory purchase of health insurance under the bill will create havoc, because it won't take long for younger-healthier Americans to realize it's cheaper to pay the $750 tax rather than the $5,000 premium. There are also hidden taxes for those earning less than the $250,000 Obama says will not be taxed.

I still haven't heard of any savings proposed in the Obamacare. Have you?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

roger, There's a very revealing article in today's WSJ. It addresses all the lies Obama has been spewing about "it won't cost a dime more." It's written by Tom Coburn, a practicing physician for 25 years.

Uh, the batshit crazy senator from Oklahoma?

Are you out of your mind? Presenting Coburn as anything but an extreme partisan on this issue his highly dishonest.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cyclo, Quit with the bull **** ad hominems, and challenge what he said. I want to see your evidence to refute his claims.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Cyclo, Quit with the bull **** ad hominems, and challenge what he said. I want to see your evidence to refute his claims.

Why didn't you identify him as someone who has an extremely vested interest in killing the reform the Dems are proposing?

You really have gone around the bend on this issue, CI - you are constantly quoting the wingnuts, the very people you criticize on a wide variety of other issues and in other threads. It doesn't make sense.

As for Coburn's idiotic claims,

Quote:

The current Senate bill, sections 3403 and 2021, empowers Medicare to deny treatment based on cost. A Medicare Advisory Board created by the bill will have total control and unaccountable to anybody - even congress, and they will expand rationing of services and drugs. Section 6301 of the bill creates what is called "comparative research effectiveness research (CER) programs as "rationing commissions." Another section, 2713, (on page 17) that "health insurance plans shall provide coverages for services approved by the task force. This is where government asserts power over the physician and their patients.

This is absolutely no different than current health insurance. Not even a little. The idea that the 'advisory board' won't be answerable to Congress is a joke, there's no proof that is true.

The idea that the government is 'asserting power' over physicians is a lie. It's no different than how private insurance companies decide what they will and won't pay for.

Quote:

The bill will extend Medicaid eligibility to 133% of the poverty level individuals that will lead to rationing. In Maryland, 17,000 Medicaid patients are currently on a "waiting list" for medical services.

These same people would be dead or dying without the Medicaid in Maryland. I haven't seen any actual credible evidence that rationing will be a real problem under this bill; this is an assertion, not a fact.

Quote:

The mandatory purchase of health insurance under the bill will create havoc, because it won't take long for younger-healthier Americans to realize it's cheaper to pay the $750 tax rather than the $5,000 premium. There are also hidden taxes for those earning less than the $250,000 Obama says will not be taxed.

I think this is written by someone who can't remember what it's like to be young and has no clue what they are talking about. Also, there is no explanation of what the 'hidden taxes' are.

None of this also speaks to the 'deficit-neutral' nature of the bill. The fact that taxes will be raised to pay for it doesn't make it add to the deficit.

Cycloptichorn

3 Replies

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

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