65
   

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 10:11 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

okie, Posting articles from FOX News is a waste of time; most of us, I'm sure, don't bother to read it, and it takes up cyberspace with junk - like your personal opinions that we tolerate to show how stupid you are!


Heres another Fox News article, according to you a waste of time, but not to me, as it appears Axelrod could be profiting, or possibly relatives or associates could be profiting? --- for insiders work being done. I think it needs some checking out, ci, how about you?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/19/consulting-firm-tied-white-house-given-millions-health-care-ad-campaign/

"AKPD Message and Media, founded by Axelrod, along with firm GMMB, were paid $12 million by Health Economy Now and Americans for Stable Quality Care, a coalition that includes Pharmaceutical Research & Manufacturers of America, or PhRMA, to produce ads promoting President Obama's health care reform.

The firms received over $300 million to manage ads for Obama's presidential campaign.

....

Axelrod left the firm on Dec. 31, 2008, with the agreement that it owed him $2 million -- and some Republican critics now question whether the firm was hired to indirectly fund his severance package.

The House Republican Conference issued a one-page memo Tuesday, questioning the sincerity of the administration's calls for change and transparency. "As the pharmaceutical industry spends hundreds of millions supporting a government takeover of health care, some may wonder whether White House senior advisors earning millions of dollars paid for in part by the pharmaceutical industry represents the kind of change American can believe in?"

Axelrod, a veteran journalist and former columnist with the Chicago Tribune, founded AKPD Message and Media in 1984 following his work managing Paul Simon's victorious U.S. Senate campaign.

The firm, formerly known as Axelrod and Associates, provides consulting and advertising for Democratic candidates and causes. Axelrod's son, Michael, joined AKPD in 2006 as the firm's research director. AKPD also employed Obama's presidential campaign manager David Plouffe as a partner beginning in 2003.

...."




Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 10:13 am
@okie,
Did you ever say one word about Bush and Cheney extensively using Halliburton, even as Cheney owned millions of dollars in their stock? Once?

Nope

Therefore, I find your argument to be hypocritical and uncompelling.

Cycloptichorn
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 10:19 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I don't know how this is related to universal health care ... but the private company Blackwater seems to have been a "branch" of the CIA.

Blackwater's founder (the company actually is named Xe Services LLC) Peter Prince was an intern in George H. W. Bush's White House and is a major financial supporter of Republican Party
okie
 
  0  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 10:22 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Totally different, this is the Whitehouse using these firms, not the Defense department. It was not Cheney that hired Halliburton to run ads for some program he had. Come on cyclops, use an ounce of reason. Besides, Halliburton actually did something important, not do propaganda.

I would bet Halliburton is still doing alot of work for the government, as they almost always have, before Bush even went to Washington. What baloney you peddle.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 10:27 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Totally different, this is the Whitehouse using these firms, not the Defense department.


Are you kidding?? The Defense Department is part of the Executive Branch. Bush and Cheney controlled the Defense Department. There is no difference whatsoever and you are being dense if you claim there is.

Quote:
It was not Cheney that hired Halliburton to run ads for some program he had. Come on cyclops, use an ounce of reason. Besides, Halliburton actually did something important, not do propaganda.


Rolling Eyes

No, Cheney just hired Halliburton to take care of all that cash they had lying around, and they did a great job of it, before skipping town to avoid the taxes. Bravo!

Quote:
I would bet Halliburton is still doing alot of work for the government, as they almost always have, before Bush even went to Washington. What baloney you peddle.


You want to bet that the PR firms in question have done work for the government before this, as well?

You're toast on this issue, let's move back to health care

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 10:30 am
@Walter Hinteler,
That's right; the CIA hired blackwater to do their assassination work. They were contracted to kill al Qaida brass, but from what I've read, it's been a big failure.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 10:44 am
@cicerone imposter,
The CIA has been trying to assassinate Fidel Castro ever since Eisenhower was president. If that agency is in charge of assassinating Al Qaeda leaders, we can be sure they will die of advanced old age. I don't see what the problem is - especially since no assassinations actually took place.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 10:47 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

The CIA has been trying to assassinate Fidel Castro ever since Eisenhower was president. If that agency is in charge of assassinating Al Qaeda leaders, we can be sure they will die of advanced old age. I don't see what the problem is - especially since no assassinations actually took place.


Well, as others have said, they could have hired ME to do no assassinations at a third of the cost Laughing

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 10:48 am
@High Seas,
Fidel is now dieing of natural causes; that's about the extent of the CIAs kill program - as far as we know.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 10:50 am
@Cycloptichorn,
You can ask for "substantion" for these and other facts, well known to others, all day without motivating them to respond. You choose to hide behind ignorance, whether real or feigned, as a rhetorical device, and apparently it suits you.

Not everything "citable" on the internet is true.
Many of the objections you raised were to logical inferences that required only a little bit of critical thinking.

For example, President Obama has, in many speeches and public comments, referred to the huge savings he will reap from medicare. This started during the campaign and has continued through his term of office (though in the last few weeks he appears to have stopped these references). How will he accomplish this? You say it will be through the application of modern methods to medical practice. How will this be done in Medicare which only sets rates and write checks? Isn't it clear that, absent some fundamental restructuring of the Medicare law itself - one that directly inserts the government in the doctor patient relationship - this cannot be done without arbitrarily reducing payment rates or other denials of service? Interestingly the president has assured his audiences that he will do neither. People aren't stupid, and they are generally pretty good at detecting a con. This is merely one example of the real issues that are driving an increasingly widespread public disaffection with the president and his health care program.

I recognize that the health care industry, like many others, is very complex. "Reforming" it cannot be done in a stroke, and there are many serious contradictions that must be dealt with in any such effort. Perhaps the real lesson here is that the government shouldn't be into "reforming" industry or public economic activity at all. If the 20th century taught us anything on the matter it was (1) that industry and commerce require government regulation to set limits, enforce laws and contracts, and equitably collect taxes; and (2) that attempts at government central planning or management of industry produce only inefficiency, corruption and decay.

The Administration has reacted to the criticism it has earned by demonizing the insurance companies - the very entities that were so forcefully encouraged during the Clinton Administrations. These companies - many non profit - are regulated by the 50 states. This form of regulation does cause regional inequities in rates and sometimes coverage, and it limits competition nationally. All such regulatory structures create coalitions of regulators and regulated that find ways of benefitting from the existing structure - whatever it may be. This limits competition and the portability of coverage as people move from job to job and place to place. Here is an area for some enlightened reform that might produce some benefit. We allow national competition by auto insurers and (im most states) require proof of coverage if you want to drive. Might this not be a good principle for health care? (It's what Walter brags about so incessantly in Germany.)
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 10:53 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Totally different, this is the Whitehouse using these firms, not the Defense department.

I missed where your article said that the White House had hired this firm to run ads. Could you quote that for me?

0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 10:53 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

You can ask for "substantion" for these and other facts, well known to others, all day without motivating them to respond. You choose to hide behind ignorance, whether real or feigned, as a rhetorical device, and apparently it suits you.


Not going to bother responding to any of the rest of the post, or even read it, George. You say 'well known to others' while peddling untruths. You are making up facts to suit your persistent anti-government arguments. I specifically accuse you of this.

I understand that these lies are 'well known' amongst Republicans, but that doesn't make them true; and your refusal to do even the tiniest bit of due diligence reflects poorly on you. There can be no real discussion when one side refuses to participate in the most basic element of internet discussion: a willingness to argue from fact instead of assertion. You have made it quite clear that you consider yourself to be above providing actual facts, and think your assertions should suffice for everyone here instead. They do not.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 11:02 am
@Cycloptichorn,
But, Cyclo, you love to play ping-pong! LOL
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 11:08 am
@okie,
Okie - you may want to try an occasional picture as some posters here have trouble understanding words and numbers. This one illustrates an article on health care reform in the new issue of The Economist:
http://media.economist.com/images/20090822/D3409US1.jpg
http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_ID=14258740
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 11:13 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I can not respond to your post because that would make me think. Therefore I will write this lame-assed response that will get my little gnome friend Cicerone Imposter to cheer for me. In it, I will imply that you are an idiot incapable of using a basic search engine to post a quote that I could look for myself were I not a neurotic twit. I will then explain why I can not compete against your superior reasoning skills by making it appear that I am far smarter then you and that your lack of posting a link to an internet article obviously makes anything you might write completely immaterial.

Cycloptichorn


/fixed
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 11:16 am
@McGentrix,
Almost funny; a decent effort, overall. And I do admire your solidarity.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 11:50 am
@High Seas,
You said: "If you're going to do that, 3% overhead is too high, overhead should be zero - you can get a machine to do it automatically. The sheer dishonesty in this debate is staggering."

If you're replacing whatever your current process is, one that you've already classified as overhead, with "a machine" then why would the cost of that process no longer be considered overhead? Which brings us back to the fact that machines are not free and require maintenance and programming and software, you can put them in whatever bucket you want. Perhaps you weren't talking about "overhead costs" when you said you can get a machine to do "it" automatically. Or perhaps you would just rather hide behind semantics and your own perceived intellectual superiority.

You seem like a pretty intelligent and educated person, so maybe you are already aware that the tone you use reeks of someone who is intellectually insecure and feels the need to constantly display their own knowledge by insulting others.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 11:54 am
@FreeDuck,
FreeDuck, I was thinking the same thing; even machines cost $$$ with continued maintenance costs and upgrades.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 11:57 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

It's tiresome to see posters who know precisely nothing about the subject attempt to express opinions without at least looking up some explanation of the terms. That much is obvious even to you.


It must also be tiresome to lug that big head on your shoulders all day, but I'm sure you do it with grace and composure.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 12:00 pm
@FreeDuck,
FD, Thanks for the good laugh for the day.
0 Replies
 
 

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