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IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2007 11:41 am
Well, it's kind of funny, innit? c.i. makes a typo, Miller corrects him, makes another typo, Walter points that out, making another typo, and McG comments on that. I totally couldn't resist commenting on that. (And I love McG and Miller for understandably giving in to the same urge.)

So now that we've done that, we might as well return to the topic, eh?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2007 11:41 am
McGentrix wrote:
"wriong"?


Well, member, we could write our posts in a differnet language than our native and compare then the typos as well as the mistakes.

I've started already. Your turn now.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2007 11:42 am
Some people prefer to make a bigger deal out of spelling errors than the topic at hand, but that's understandable.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2007 11:43 am
(Such fun is good for the health, oe, and totally free, even in the USA!)
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2007 11:43 am
Miller wrote:
And in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts , which now has Universal Health Care, the cost to the average adult, not covered by an employer, ranges from $300-$700/month.
Rates are determined by age of partcipant and locale of residence within Massachusetts.


I remember reading about that. It's a fairly recent thing, isn't it? Can you provide some details? Is everybody (unemployed, students, etc.) covered?
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2007 11:43 am
Quote:
Jena university had the first ever university institute researching the relation of smoking and health etc, founded by the 30's as well: the researchers were the first to establish - beyond clinical anecdote - the causal link between smoking and lung cancer. [Two studies, one published in 1939, the other in 1943, compared the smoking habits of people with lung cancer and those without it.])


How many of these studies were conducted on Jews, Gays, Gypsies, and others planned for extermination by Hitler?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2007 11:46 am
And I thought we were discussing health care. I don't think any country had universal health care back in the 1940s, but I'm not 100 percent sure of that.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2007 11:50 am
Miller wrote:
How many of these studies were conducted on Jews, Gays, Gypsies, and others planned for extermination by Hitler?


I suppose, your academic level is high enough to find the related studies resp. their critics online.

I would be more than pleased to discuss this topic - please create a thread in history.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2007 11:50 am
Robert Proctor's extensive research into science in Nazi Germany is detailed in his new book,

The Nazi War on Cancer, published this year.

1930s fascism spawned
public health initiatives

By A'ndrea Elyse Messer

Public Information

Anti-tobacco campaigns, whole grain breads, breast self-examination and control of carcinogens in the workplace are normal approaches to preventing or controlling cancer today, but according to a science historian, in the 1930s and 1940s, it was actually Nazi Germany that pioneered many such practices.

"Nazism took root in the world's most powerful scientific culture boasting half of the world's Nobel Prizes and a sizable fraction of the world's patents," said Robert N. Proctor, professor of the history of science. "The story of science under German fascism cannot be just a narrative of suppression and survival. We also have to explain how and why Nazi ideology promoted certain areas of inquiry, how research was turned and twisted, how projects and policies came and went with the movement of political forces."

In his research, Proctor charts the path of Nazi science and medicine throughout many different twists and turns, focusing on cancer. The atrocities and injustices of Nazi Germany are not ignored, but Proctor is primarily interested in how the philosophies that created concentration camps, mass sterilization and "racial hygiene" influenced other, less well-known aspects of public health and safety.

"In the Nazi period, health officials developed safeguards against exposure to deadly chemical toxins at the same time the efforts were also under way to use some of those very same toxins to kill millions of Jews and Gypsies," said Proctor. His research has been published in the new book, The Nazi War on Cancer (Princeton University Press, 1999).

The Nazi effort against cancer took many forms, including nutritional and diet therapeutics, mitigation of occupational hazards such as asbestos and an aggressive anti-tobacco program. Hitler's vegetarianism and abstinence from alcohol and tobacco influenced preventive approaches, as did the increasing scarcity of supplies in a country long at war.

On the dietary front, efforts were not always simply for human health benefits, but also for economic health benefits. White bread was bad because it was deemed a "French revolutionary invention" and white flour because it was chemically treated. However, white bread also cost more to bake. Eating less bleached flour, meat, sugar and fat was not only healthy, but also economically sound.

The Nazi war against tobacco took many forms. Tobacco advertising was restricted and regulations were imposed to limit smoking by women and children. Basic science initiatives also were launched.

"The startling truth is that it was actually in Nazi Germany that the link was originally established (between cigarettes and lung cancer)," writes Proctor. "German tobacco epidemiology was, in fact, for a time, the most advanced in the world, as were many other aspects of the anti-tobacco effort."

Proctor believes that the recognition of the dangers of tobacco was fostered by a political climate stressing the virtues of racial hygiene and bodily purity. In racial hygiene journals, smoking was associated with rebellion, jazz and swing dancing, degenerate blacks, Jews and Gypsies. Anti-smoking posters used inflammatory and insulting images of Africans, Jews and Indians.

Detection, prevention and treatment of cancer were important in Nazi medicine and an effort to gain good statistical control of a cancer registry was an early goal. However, because one in eight German physicians was Jewish, the regulations prohibiting Jewish doctors from treating anyone other than Jews severely disrupted the cancer registry and similar restrictions in universities strongly affected research.

Proctor shows that public health initiatives were launched in the name of national socialism and that Nazi ideals informed the practice and popularization of science, guiding it, motivating it and reorienting it in ways we are only beginning to appreciate.

"The Nazi war on cancer has been ignored because we do not seem to be comfortable with the idea that people with rotten ethical ideas could have been 'ahead of their time' in spheres of medicine and public health," Proctor said.

While Nazi medicine is remembered for its atrocities, that is only part of its lesson and that alone would distort our understanding, according to Proctor.

"The Nazi campaign against tobacco and the 'whole grain bread operation' are, in some sense, as fascist as the yellow stars and the death camps," said Proctor. "Understanding such complexities may better allow us to understand how even many right-thinking Germans supported Hitler."
Grant to aid study of development of nervous system

James T. Warren Jr., assistant professor of biology at Penn State Erie, has received a $75,000 grant from the National Institutes of Health (NIH) to study genetic development. The funding will permit Warren to pursue his work in understanding the regenerative processes that follow spinal cord injury.

Warren is among scientists around the world making history in the ongoing study how we grow from a single cell to a complex many-celled organism. The $75,000 Academic Research Enhancement Award he received from the NIH will allow him to continue his study of the genes involved in the development of the vertebrate nervous system.

These funds are given only to undergraduate institutions that prepare students for graduate study or for careers in medicine, Warren said.

In the 1980s scientists used the fruit fly (Drosophila) to unravel genetic mysteries, but in recent years they have adopted the zebrafish, a small aquarium fish, as a model for studying and understanding the genes involved in governing human embryonic development.

Warren's research focuses on understanding the molecules that guide the growth of nerve fibers in the brain and spinal cord of the zebrafish. Because early development is prompted by sets of genes that are comparable in zebrafish and humans, researchers realize the benefits of using zebrafish for genetic study.

Another advantage of zebrafish is that they develop outside the mother, and their embryos are so transparent that scientists can see almost every developing cell.

Warren has found evidence that the direction of growth cones, the motile sensory structures that guide the ends of growing nerve fibers in zebrafish, may be influenced by a molecule called TAG-1 (transiently expressed axonal glycoprotein).

In his research, he hopes to determine the precise role that TAG-1 has in the development and growth of nerve fibers in the brain and spinal cord.

"A better understanding of the molecular mechanisms of growth cone guidance in zebrafish should lead us to a better understanding of the human regenerative processes following brain and spinal cord injury," said Warren.

www.psu.edu
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2007 11:55 am
Miller, Interesting article. Thanks.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2007 11:55 am
No-one doubts that, ad this book is well known (besides some others).

But what has this to do with universal health? Or German health insurance system?

I mean, you certainly can connect any topic in any science with the one or other or even several Nazi crimes.

If you get your satisfaction of needs by such - have fun.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2007 11:56 am
Quite interesting.

Of course there are many dubious aspects of the exchange of results between the Nazi regime and other Western countries.

Principles of Eugenics, for example, where adopted in the States as well, and remained in place for years after the fall of the Nazis.

And results from tests with KZ prisoners (such as the drowning/freezing or high altitude/pressure experiments) where subsequently used in the American space programme.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2007 11:57 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Miller wrote:

So this patient lacked funds for US health insurance, but he had $18,000 for a procedure in India??


Miller's quote wrote:
When Roger Wertanen sought relief from back pain by way of a medical device from Fridley-based Medtronic, the southeast Minnesota resident flew to India to get it.

That's because the device is an artificial disk that isn't approved for use in the U.S., but it is available in India, Germany and some other countries.
[...]
Cost is the primary motive for many Americans who travel abroad for care, usually because they lack health insurance coverage for their chosen procedure.


You get such for free here, covered by our compulsory insurance.
(Quite interesting aside: since one of our two local hospitalsdoes such operation, and since they send their post-operation patients to the rehabilitation clinic here, we get now quite a few foreigners staying in our village :wink: )


I find that hard to believe Walter. Are you saying that the German health insurance system will pay for medical procedures that the German equivelant of the FDA haven't approved? So if you, as a German citizen were struck with cancer (god forbid!) and you decided the best treatment for it would be for you to take some medicince that the German FDA (not sure what you call it there) hadn't approved (or had rejected...), they'd pay for you to go to China or Nigeria to get it?

parados wrote:
Miller wrote:
Quote:
parados wrote:
Is the US health care system really the best?

Cost is the primary motive for many Americans who travel abroad for care, usually because they lack health insurance coverage for their chosen procedure.

...


http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_6352534?source=rv&nclick_
check=1


So this patient lacked funds for US health insurance, but he had $18,000 for a procedure in India??

He had insurance. You might try reading the story...

In some cases insurance won't cover the procedure. The story explains that.


Should it? And would a Universal heath insurance program pay for it? Even Medicare only covers "Approved" treatments...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2007 12:25 pm
fishin wrote:
I find that hard to believe Walter. Are you saying that the German health insurance system will pay for medical procedures that the German equivelant of the FDA haven't approved? So if you, as a German citizen were struck with cancer (god forbid!) and you decided the best treatment for it would be for you to take some medicince that the German FDA (not sure what you call it there) hadn't approved (or had rejected...), they'd pay for you to go to China or Nigeria to get it?


This artifical divice is approved here (and many other countries).
To be honest: that people are now frequenting one of our local hospitals for such operations has to do with fact that the head of the orthopaedic department there was involved in the development of it when he taught/researched at a university.

Our local rehabilitation clinics here in my village are co-operating (due to the "spa reform we had had a couple of years ago) now very closely with some health insurance companies as well as with some hospitals = patients from there come "automatcally" here.

Foreigners pay .... I'm not sure what and how much in hospitals.
In the clinics, they pay about 200 Euro/day fullboard.

We can go abroad for certain, different, alternative methods.
It depends on what the health insurance pays. (Mine pays quite a lot.)
But that is decided as the case arises. (mine pays e.g. dental operations in eastern Europe, sometimes, because they are a lot cheaper.)

I don't think "exotic" health methoda and treatments in "exotic" countries are paid (only if it is normal treatment and you got it as a tourist there).

Sorry that me post sounded so misleading.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2007 12:36 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
fishin wrote:
I find that hard to believe Walter. Are you saying that the German health insurance system will pay for medical procedures that the German equivelant of the FDA haven't approved? So if you, as a German citizen were struck with cancer (god forbid!) and you decided the best treatment for it would be for you to take some medicince that the German FDA (not sure what you call it there) hadn't approved (or had rejected...), they'd pay for you to go to China or Nigeria to get it?


This artifical divice is approved here (and many other countries).
To be honest: that people are now frequenting one of our local hospitals for such operations has to do with fact that the head of the orthopaedic department there was involved in the development of it when he taught/researched at a university.

Our local rehabilitation clinics here in my village are co-operating (due to the "spa reform we had had a couple of years ago) now very closely with some health insurance companies as well as with some hospitals = patients from there come "automatcally" here.

Foreigners pay .... I'm not sure what and how much in hospitals.
In the clinics, they pay about 200 Euro/day fullboard.

We can go abroad for certain, different, alternative methods.
It depends on what the health insurance pays. (Mine pays quite a lot.)
But that is decided as the case arises. (mine pays e.g. dental operations in eastern Europe, sometimes, because they are a lot cheaper.)

I don't think "exotic" health methoda and treatments in "exotic" countries are paid (only if it is normal treatment and you got it as a tourist there).

Sorry that me post sounded so misleading.


So, in essence, this story related in the article that kicked off the last 4 pages of nonsensical bickering, could just as easily have happened in Germany under the German healthcare system. Wink
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2007 12:41 pm
Eh, no. He would have got it here .... when he had worked/lived here or were a German, of course, only.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2007 02:16 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Eh, no. He would have got it here .... when he had worked/lived here or were a German, of course, only.


You are missing the point. He would have gotten that particular treatment there but someone else who wants an unapproved treatment there wouldn't get it paid for automatically under the German system just as this guy's insurance wouldn't pay for his treatment here.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 06:06 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:


But what has this to do with universal health?


We were discussing governmental regulation of an individual's health and you stated that you were against the German government regulating your means to achieve health. That's why I asked about smoking and trans-fat. You then brought up the role of Hitler in the smoking prohibition.

Why isn't trans-fat intake regulated in Germany, while smoking apparently is?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 06:22 am
Oh, I didn't notice that we were discussing governmental regulation of an individual's health.

I'd had another idea namely that this thread was about universal healthcare. At least, that's what the creator of it named it.

Neither did our regulations change from yesterday to today nor did I change my opinion about this: trans-fat is regulated in Germany, but it certainly could be done better.
0 Replies
 
Coolwhip
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jul, 2007 07:08 am
Miller wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:


But what has this to do with universal health?


We were discussing governmental regulation of an individual's health and you stated that you were against the German government regulating your means to achieve health. That's why I asked about smoking and trans-fat. You then brought up the role of Hitler in the smoking prohibition.

Why isn't trans-fat intake regulated in Germany, while smoking apparently is?


In Norway, smoking is prohibited indoors in public places. Restaurants risk being fined if they allow smoking inside their premises. The reason for this, which is in my mind quite obvious, is that second hand smoking can be hazardous for the employees that tend the bars etc. Trans-fat does not harm anyone but the person who eats it. So, it does not become a question of the government regulating the health of the individual, rather the government protecting the environment of the workplace.
0 Replies
 
 

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