65
   

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 03:39 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
If negativity arises to a certain level, he will try to capitalize on it, use it, and that is what the media is doing now, in cohort with his minions. The man is a manipulator. This is what he studied as a community organizer. Read the Rules for Radicals, cyclops, Obama is a radical, and these rules he uses to his advantage if he can.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 03:45 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

If negativity arises to a certain level, he will try to capitalize on it, use it, and that is what the media is doing now, in cohort with his minions.


You claimed that Obama is causing the negativity. Show how he is causing the negativity.

Quote:
The man is a manipulator. This is what he studied as a community organizer. Read the Rules for Radicals, cyclops, Obama is a radical, and these rules he uses to his advantage if he can.


I have read Alinsky's book, long ago; and you can't fault Obama or the Dems for using the ammo that your side throws to them. It isn't their fault that you have a bunch of people riled up and making fools of themselves. It is your side's fault, because your interest groups, elected leaders, and media leaders have intentionally been riling people up and sending them to these meetings. Now that it is backfiring, you start bitching about it....

Cycloptichorn
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 03:47 pm
I can't immediately find my last post, but it was in reference to Atul Gawande's article, The Cost Conundrum, in the New Yorker in early June. Eh, maybe it was in another thread. I didn't want to begin to paraphrase much less summarize a many paged article. That was centered on considering two like communities in Texas and their disparate health costs, and some of the whys behind those. I assume no one rushed to read the article.

But here's a teaser, an opinion piece in today's NYTimes, by Gawande et al.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/13/opinion/13gawande.html?ref=global-home

Heck, it's short, I'll copy it. But, for a considered background on what they are saying, look at

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06/01/090601fa_fact_gawande

Today's opinion piece -

10 Steps to Better Health Care

By ATUL GAWANDE, DONALD BERWICK, ELLIOTT FISHER and MARK McCLELLAN
Published: August 12, 2009
WE have reached a sobering point in our national health-reform debate. Americans have recognized that our health system is bankrupting us and that we have dealt with this by letting the system price more and more people out of health care. So we are trying to decide if we are willing to change " willing to ensure that everyone can have coverage. That means banishing the phrase “pre-existing condition.” It also means finding ways to pay for coverage for those who can’t afford it without help.

Both of these steps stir heated argument, not to mention lobbyists’ hearts. But what creates the deepest unease is considering what we will have to do about the system’s exploding costs if pushing more people out is no longer an option. We have really discussed only two options: raising taxes or rationing care. The public is understandably alarmed.

There is a far more desirable alternative: to change how care is delivered so that it is both less expensive and more effective. But there is widespread skepticism about whether that is possible.

Yes, many European health systems have done it, but we are not Europe. And evidence that places like the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota or the Cleveland Clinic are doing it is likewise dismissed because their unique structures (for example, their physicians work on salary rather than being paid for each service) make them seem as far from Middle America as Sweden is.

Yet in studying communities all over America, not just a few unusual corners, we have found evidence that more effective, lower-cost care is possible.

To find models of success, we searched among our country’s 306 Hospital Referral Regions, as defined by the Dartmouth Atlas of Health Care, for “positive outliers.” Our criteria were simple: find regions with per capita Medicare costs that are low or markedly declining in rank and where federal measures of quality are above average. In the end, 74 regions passed our test.

So we invited physicians, hospital executives and local leaders from 10 of these regions to a meeting in Washington so they could explain how they do what they do. They came from towns big and small, urban and rural, North and South, East and West. Here’s the list: Asheville, N.C.; Cedar Rapids, Iowa; Everett, Wash.; La Crosse, Wis.; Portland, Me.; Richmond, Va.; Sacramento; Sayre, Pa.; Temple, Tex.; and Tallahassee, Fla., which, despite not ranking above the 50th percentile in terms of quality, has made such great recent strides in both costs and quality that we thought it had something to teach us.

If the rest of America could achieve the performances of regions like these, our health care cost crisis would be over. Their quality scores are well above average. Yet they spend more than $1,500 (16 percent) less per Medicare patient than the national average and have a slower real annual growth rate (3 percent versus 3.5 percent nationwide).

Caveat: Because we relied on Medicare data for our selections, it is possible that some of these regions are not so low-cost from the viewpoint of non-Medicare patients. But overall data strongly suggest that most of these regions are providing excellent care for all patients while being far more successful than others at not overusing or misusing health care resources.

So how do they do that? Some have followed the Mayo model, with salaried doctors employed by a unified local system focused on quality of care: these include Temple, where the Scott and White clinic dominates the market, and Sayre, where the Guthrie Clinic does. Other regions, including Richmond and Everett, look more like most American communities, with several medical groups whose physicians are paid on a traditional fee-for-service basis. But they, too, have found ways to protect patients against the damaging incentives of a system that encourages fragmentation of care and the pursuit of revenues over patient needs.

The physicians and hospital leaders from Cedar Rapids told us how they have adopted electronic systems to improve communication among physicians and quality of care. Last year, they decided to investigate the overuse of CAT scans. They examined the data and found that in just one year 52,000 scans were done in a community of 300,000 people. A large portion of them were almost certainly unnecessary, not to mention possibly harmful, as CAT scans have about 1,000 times as much radiation exposure as a chest X-ray.

“I was embarrassed for us,” said Jim Levett, a cardiac surgeon and the head of a large physician group. More important, the area’s doctors and clinics are turning that embarrassment into change by seeking out solutions to reduce the expense and harm of unnecessary scans.

That number of scans in Cedar Rapids may seem shocking, but there is nothing surprising about it. Nationwide, we do 62 million CAT scans a year for 300 million people. So Cedar Rapids’s rate was actually better than average. But all medicine is local. And until a community confronts what goes on in its own population " to the point of actually seeking the data and engaging those who can solve the problem " nothing will change.

The team from Portland told us of a collaboration of doctors, state officials, insurers and community leaders to improve care. For more than four years, physicians have been tracking some 60 measures of quality, like medication error rates for their patients, and meeting voluntary cost-reduction goals.

Asheville, after gaining state support to avoid antitrust concerns, merged two underutilized hospitals. In Sacramento, a decade of fierce competition among four rival health systems brought about elimination of unneeded beds, adoption of new electronic systems for patient data and a race to raise quality. Sacramento also went from being one of America’s high-cost areas for health care to being among the low-cost elite.

In their own ways, each of these successful communities tells the same simple story: better, safer, lower-cost care is within reach. Many high-cost regions are just a few hours’ drive from a lower-cost, higher-quality region. And in the more efficient areas, neither the physicians nor the citizens reported feeling that care is “rationed.” Indeed, it’s rational.

Many in Congress and the Obama administration seem to recognize this. The various reform bills making their way through the process have included provisions to protect successful medical communities by incorporating payment approaches that reward those that slow spending growth while improving patient outcomes. This is the right direction for reform.

There is a lot of troubling rhetoric being thrown around in the health care debate. But we don’t need to be trapped between charges that reforms will ration care and doing nothing about costs and coverage. We must instead look at the communities that are already redesigning American health care for the better, and pursue ways for the nation to follow their lead.
end/opinion piece

As with most NYT articles, I bet the reader comments will be useful, one way or another.

mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 03:48 pm
@Debra Law,
I will repost my legitimate questions for you to answer, along with a link to the version of the bill I am reading.

Answer the questions I am asking.
They Are legitimate questions that nobody is answering.

Quote:
I have been reading one version of the bill http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf

And so far I have noticed something disturbing.

There is no mention at all of alternative medicine (chiropractic, acupuncture, holistic therapies, etc), so is the govt going to cover them?
They ARE accepted medical treatments, even if they are unorthodox.

Also, the bill does not mention vision care, dental care, aural care (hearing aids).
Will those be covered?
And if not, why not?

Also, my current insurance travels with me.
If I am in a foreign country and need it, my insurance is there for me.
Now, I dont see anything in the bill that allows for that.
So ,if someone travels, will they be without insurance?
Will they have to foot the bill themselves?
Will the govt of the country they are in pay the bill?
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 03:54 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

You claimed that Obama is causing the negativity. Show how he is causing the negativity.Cycloptichorn

Well, he may have preferred to see Obamacare sail through without a hitch, but since the opposition has occurred, I think some of his groups and supporters are being sent in to confront the opposition, so that if confrontations occur, it can be blamed upon his opposition. The man became president by organizing all of his supporters on the ground, and he has no intention of not utilizing the same tactics as president. He is not president of all the people, he only wants to ram his policies through by using his supporters. ACORN is part of that, and don't kid yourself, if he has his way, they will attempt to manipulate not only the census, but the next election. I predict corruption will grow, could explode, under Obama. He is a crooked Chicago politician, a community agitator and organizer extraordinaire. Obama does not wish to listen to the legitimate concerns of opposing views. He does not wish to compromise. He wants to ram his agenda down our throats, so we all might as well prepare ourselves for the huge political battle ahead.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 03:59 pm
@ossobuco,
osso, Excellent post; it describe how universal health care can work. The key is to build in efficiencies of care that reduces overall cost. It must be multi-dimensional for any universal health care to work by making sure the cost savings will cover most of those who are now not insured. The key, change how health care is delivered, must be part and parcel of the universal health care system. It's not a matter of estimating total cost and how that cost will be covered through additional taxes. It must by necessity include electronic systems, reduce paperwork, and revise how health care is delivered to all in the most efficient and effective manner.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 04:02 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

You claimed that Obama is causing the negativity. Show how he is causing the negativity.Cycloptichorn

Well, he may have preferred to see Obamacare sail through without a hitch, but since the opposition has occurred, I think some of his groups and supporters are being sent in to confront the opposition, so that if confrontations occur, it can be blamed upon his opposition. The man became president by organizing all of his supporters on the ground, and he has no intention of not utilizing the same tactics as president. He is not president of all the people, he only wants to ram his policies through by using his supporters. ACORN is part of that, and don't kid yourself, if he has his way, they will attempt to manipulate not only the census, but the next election. I predict corruption will grow, could explode, under Obama. He is a crooked Chicago politician, a community agitator and organizer extraordinaire. Obama does not wish to listen to the legitimate concerns of opposing views. He does not wish to compromise. He wants to ram his agenda down our throats, so we all might as well prepare ourselves for the huge political battle ahead.


Dude, you're pretty ******* removed from reality. This reads like a conspiracy theory.

The fact that Obama has specifically instructed the Dems in Congress to not abandon bipartisan talks - how do you explain that? The fact that he is willing to compromise - how do you explain that?

You don't, because you don't care what the actual details are, if they don't match your Obama = evil fascist meme. It's a little disturbing, Okie.

Obama doesn't want to 'ram his agenda' down your throat, any more than Bush and the Republicans did when they were in power; surely you realize this?

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 04:07 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
okie doesn't realize "anything." His world is one-dimensional where Obama is the evil one that wants to convert our country into socialism/communism.

His use of the word socialism escapes the reality of most developed, capitalistic, countries that already has universal health care. They not only enjoy a healthier life, but live longer than US citizens. They're so deaf and dumb, they prefer living in the dark with worse health, and die earlier.
mysteryman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 04:13 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
They're so deaf and dumb, they prefer living in the dark with worse health, and die earlier.


Since you didnt specify which Americans you mean, this description must also apply to you.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 04:35 pm
Here is an Obama plant in operation about the health care debate..

http://blogs.chron.com/txpotomac/2009/08/jackson_lee_says_she_doesnt_kn.html

Quote:
U.S. Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee said today she does not know the woman who falsely claimed to be a physician when she made a statement supporting the White House's health care overhaul at the congresswoman's town hall meeting Tuesday.

The woman, a University of Houston student named Roxana Mayer, is not a licensed physician, although she called herself one at the meeting and was incorrectly identified as such in Wednesday's editions of the Chronicle.

In an e-mail to the Chronicle today, Mayer said she'd been advised not to talk further about the matter, but did not say who counseled her.

Mayer was an organizer and delegate for the Barack Obama campaign last year.


So she was a fake doctor, claiming to support health care overhaul.

And what a surprise, she also worked in the Obama campaign.

So, now we have the Obama admin sending fakes into the meetings to make false claims.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 04:41 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Here is an Obama plant in operation about the health care debate..

http://blogs.chron.com/txpotomac/2009/08/jackson_lee_says_she_doesnt_kn.html

Quote:
U.S. Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee said today she does not know the woman who falsely claimed to be a physician when she made a statement supporting the White House's health care overhaul at the congresswoman's town hall meeting Tuesday.

The woman, a University of Houston student named Roxana Mayer, is not a licensed physician, although she called herself one at the meeting and was incorrectly identified as such in Wednesday's editions of the Chronicle.

In an e-mail to the Chronicle today, Mayer said she'd been advised not to talk further about the matter, but did not say who counseled her.

Mayer was an organizer and delegate for the Barack Obama campaign last year.


So she was a fake doctor, claiming to support health care overhaul.

And what a surprise, she also worked in the Obama campaign.

So, now we have the Obama admin sending fakes into the meetings to make false claims.


Bullshit; you have no evidence that anyone sent her or anyone else to the meetings. You're simply making things up.

Cycloptichorn
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 04:45 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
She campaigned for Obama.
She CLAIMED to be a doctor, but she isnt.
She spoke in support of the Obama health care reform.

She has to be an Obama plant.
And I am using the same logic and the same burden of proof that those attacking the dissenters are using.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 04:54 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I'll add, though, and it is a worry, that I fear regimented avoidance of details re individual patients. Well, I worry about that anyway, whatever system.
Alternately, I've experience with sharp clinics, both as someone who ran a lab associated with one, and as a patient, and I know medicine can be superb with them.

Gawande, if I understand him from past columns, isn't for getting rid of insurance. I'm not sure that either insurance in its present form or single provider will bring us good medicine, in concept. Better practice is my interest, at the same time I'm for people not being booted from help just because they're sick.

Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 04:58 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

She campaigned for Obama.
She CLAIMED to be a doctor, but she isnt.
She spoke in support of the Obama health care reform.

She has to be an Obama plant.
And I am using the same logic and the same burden of proof that those attacking the dissenters are using.


Untrue; there are plenty of emails dug up from Freedomworks and Americans for Prosperity specifically directing people to go to town halls, get aggressive, 'get in people's faces,' and cause a ruckus. GOP leaders are encouraging this, FOX news is encouraging this - even listing the Dem town halls ONLY for people to go to - and so are your media leaders on the radio and TV.

Unless you can produce some corollary evidence, you are not using the same burden of proof as we are using.

Cycloptichorn
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 05:02 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:
So, now we have the Obama admin sending fakes into the meetings to make false claims.


You're grasping at straws in outer space. If the Obama administration truly implemented a covert plan to send doctors to town hall meetings to ask questions or show support, it would not need to rely on fake doctors.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 05:07 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

mysteryman wrote:

She campaigned for Obama.
She CLAIMED to be a doctor, but she isnt.
She spoke in support of the Obama health care reform.

She has to be an Obama plant.
And I am using the same logic and the same burden of proof that those attacking the dissenters are using.


Untrue; there are plenty of emails dug up from Freedomworks and Americans for Prosperity specifically directing people to go to town halls, get aggressive, 'get in people's faces,' and cause a ruckus. GOP leaders are encouraging this, FOX news is encouraging this - even listing the Dem town halls ONLY for people to go to - and so are your media leaders on the radio and TV.

Unless you can produce some corollary evidence, you are not using the same burden of proof as we are using.

Cycloptichorn


I've had many emails forwarded to me. The last one provided a link to a FOX News video of people shouting (as a good example of how to act), a list of talking points, a list of scheduled town hall meetings in the state, and a directive to take a vanload of people to these meetings to shout out the talking points.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 05:18 pm
@okie,
but you don't believe the other side capable of doing that ?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 05:22 pm
What can anybody make of people who elect somebody to run the country and then start arguing about how he does it.

It's a form of paralysis.

We have elections. The winner does his thing. We put up with it.

0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 05:38 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:
There is no mention at all of alternative medicine (chiropractic, acupuncture, holistic therapies, etc), so is the govt going to cover them?
. . .
Also, the bill does not mention vision care, dental care, aural care (hearing aids). Will those be covered?


HR 3200 is not a proposed insurance policy; it's a proposed bill. Its purpose is to enact insurance market reforms, to create a health insurance exchange with a public insurance option, etc., so that all Americans may have coverage of essential health benefits. Not all insurance plans are equal. A cadillac plan will provide more coverage than a basic plan. When choosing your own plan, you will have to determine what is covered and what is not covered and make your choice accordingly. I don't know if the public option will provide coverage for chiropractic or other services. I believe Medicare recipients, through Part B, have access to limited chiropractic coverage.

Quote:
Also, my current insurance travels with me.
If I am in a foreign country and need it, my insurance is there for me.
Now, I dont see anything in the bill that allows for that.
So ,if someone travels, will they be without insurance?
Will they have to foot the bill themselves?
Will the govt of the country they are in pay the bill?


Some insurance plans cover you abroad, some do not. You may keep your current insurance.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 05:41 pm
@Debra Law,
You're on the wrong tack Debra love. You are playing into your opponents hands.
0 Replies
 
 

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