IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Amazing how highly the 'dependent beneficiaries' rate their services, if they really are so bad. And when you pay taxes in, in order to support services, you aren't exactly a 'dependent beneficiary.' That's a highly prejudiced term.

Cycloptichorn

Most of those who will receive subsidized care under the draft legislation pay virtually no income taxes - indeed many get rebates under the earned income credits now authorized. That's a highly prejudicial system.

2 Replies

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Amazing how highly the 'dependent beneficiaries' rate their services, if they really are so bad. And when you pay taxes in, in order to support services, you aren't exactly a 'dependent beneficiary.' That's a highly prejudiced term.

Cycloptichorn

Most of those who will receive subsidized care under the draft legislation pay virtually no income taxes - indeed many get rebates under the earned income credits now authorized. That's a highly prejudicial system.

Are you not going to respond for my request for background evidence to support your theories behind 'defensive medicine?' If not, I will be more than happy to consider you to have withdrawn the point. You really ought to be able to back up statements such as that, if you are going to make such strong assertions based on them.

A huge number of people who will be covered under the new health care system will not in fact be subsidized at all; are they still worthy of your disdain? Huge numbers of citizens in other countries, who DO pay taxes to support their health care, give their socialized systems very high marks indeed. What about them? Are they also mere sheep, bleating?

Or is that just reserved for the poor, who keep voting themselves more money? I love how many of your posts drip with Classism.

Cycloptichorn

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@georgeob1,

But George-- the expression "subsidized care" means you place a price on pain and suffering which your opponents feel is not very nice and implies that all the other niceness is but a veneer or even a gambit.

On our TV last night they showed some Americans, mainly mature white males, almost coming to blows in a meeting on this issue. They were bellowing and finger wagging and pulsing at the temple vien.

And they were against a system that almost everyone in the UK thinks is wonderful and the best thing that ever happened.

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

And they were against a system that almost everyone in the UK thinks is wonderful and the best thing that ever happened.

Actually not only in the UK but in all (industrialised) countries ...

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@georgeob1,

You say that Medicare and Medicaid prove that the govt. cannot control costs. I understand that Medicare is highly cost efficient, about ten times better than any of the insurance companies. Do you have other information?

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

But George-- the expression "subsidized care" means you place a price on pain and suffering which your opponents feel is not very nice and implies that all the other niceness is but a veneer or even a gambit.

On our TV last night they showed some Americans, mainly mature white males, almost coming to blows in a meeting on this issue. They were bellowing and finger wagging and pulsing at the temple vien.

And they were against a system that almost everyone in the UK thinks is wonderful and the best thing that ever happened.

A rare agreement between us. Your last line in particular-

Quote:

And they were against a system that almost everyone in the UK thinks is wonderful and the best thing that ever happened.

George massively underestimates the advantage that passing health care reform will provide to the Dems; or he's being disingenuous about the whole thing. The simple fact that people will no longer have to keep their job, for fear of being uninsured - that's a huge weight off of people's backs. And the Dems would ride that pony to election victory after victory.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

You say that Medicare and Medicaid prove that the govt. cannot control costs. I understand that Medicare is highly cost efficient, about ten times better than any of the insurance companies. Do you have other information?

I would appreciate some basis for your assertion that MEDICARE is ten times as cost efficient as any of the insurance companies. What is your definition of "cost efficiency"? the cost of paying bills? the cost of delivering a certain medical outcome? is overhead cost included?

Government is chronically unable to accurately estimate even its own overhead costs, as many claims previously made have been shown to laughably exclude huge elements of cost such as the retirement benefits of government workers and the idle time of workers in the agencies not directly involved in the transactions at hand. Private sector organizations include these and other costs as a matter of routine.

My reference was to the actual growth of MEDICARE costs compared to the projections offered decades ago when the program was enacted - the differences are huge. This growing deficit is, by the Administration's own estimate, the greatest threat to the stability of our federal budgets. Somehow we are being asked to believe that doubling or tripling the entitlement will deliver a completely different result. This defies common sense.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

Quote:

I would appreciate some basis for your assertion that MEDICARE is ten times as cost efficient as any of the insurance companies. What is your definition of "cost efficiency"? the cost of paying bills? the cost of delivering a certain medical outcome? is overhead cost included?

Surely, given the fact that you refuse to answer such questions, you don't expect anyone else to do so either?

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

There is no way to compare the cost of private health insurance and Medicare.

Private health insurance has lifetime limits, restrictions, and the added cost of overhead that includes high salaries for CEOs (and some officers), commissions paid to salesmen/women, and all those "clerks" who decide what is covered and not covered. Under Medicare, patients are enrolled even though many have not paid into the system, and the enrollments grows with our population growth. Many who have never worked, such as the handicapped and developmentally disabled, are covered under Medicare. The cost for adding these patients can be enormous, while private health insurance doesn't have this "handicap."

There is no way to compare costs between private health insurance and Medicare. Also, Medicare begins for most people after age 65 when costs begin to escalate. Private insurance covers most while they are still relatively young and healthy.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

that's a huge weight off of people's backs.

And that's the key factor. No other argument carries any credibilty by the side of that one. Who wants to live in a country where the people suffer a huge weight on their backs everyday and all day. Raddled with permanent anxiety.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

There is no way to compare costs between private health insurance and Medicare. Also, Medicare begins for most people after age 65 when costs begin to escalate. Private insurance covers most while they are still relatively young and healthy.

I generally agree with that. I was responding to Advocate who believes he can make such a comparison and that it reveals that MRDICARE is ten times as cost effective as private insurance.

That the costs of MEDICARE have far exceeded the projections of those who supported it when it was enacted is beyond doubt. Even our current president acknowledges that and even goes on to assert that it is the single most uncontrolled element in our budget, one that will eventually bring catastrophe if it isn't restrained. Instead of offering us something sensible, like delaying the age eleigibility of the benefit a few years, he proposes to vastly expand the number of beneficiaries --- this based I suppose on the assumption that doubling the dose of the poison will somehow provide an anecdote.

2 Replies

@georgeob1,

It's true that it should be common knowledge that the cost of Medicare is getting out of hand, but we can blame both liberals and conservatives for their inaction on this real problem. Congress continues to expand the programs to many who have never paid into it, and expect the Medicare premiums that's static to pay for the ever increasing costs. Even a child knows you can't keep spending money you don't have in your pocket.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

Nobel Prize winner Paul Krugman says:

29, 2009, 2:13 pm
Medicare versus insurers
I notice from comments that a fair number of readers think that Medicare has had runaway costs. What you need to ask is, runaway compared to what?

Here’s the raw fact, from the National Health Expenditure data: since 1970 Medicare costs per beneficiary have risen at an annual rate of 8.8% " but insurance premiums have risen at an annual rate of 9.9%. The rise in Medicare costs is just part of the overall rise in health care spending. And in fact Medicare spending has lagged private spending: if insurance premiums had risen “only” as much as Medicare spending, they’d be 1/3 lower than they are.

We don’t have a Medicare problem " we have a health care problem.

1 Reply

@Advocate,

It's not only that; we already spend the most for health care, and we're the only developed country that doesn't provide universal health care.

Listen to all those yelling and screaming at the town hall meetings on health care, and they don't mention anything about health care - it's about immigrants, abortion, euthanasia, government mandate on dieing, government control, loss of choice, and everything but the issues on health care. They lie about waiting periods, and those who come to the US to get emergency surgery because the waiting period is too long. It's all about fear and loss of choice.

It's not about the 47 million without health care that's increasing every day from their loss of jobs, the increasing cost of health care, or that other developed countries with health care are happy with their plans.

Ex-gov Palin even lied about a "Death Panel...."

Quote:

Former Governor Sarah Palin made some preposterous claims over the weekend which attracted mainstream media attention. She made up the term "death panel" ...

She outright lied, because there is no such idea in the health plan being developed by congress.

This is the same person the conservatives want as our president.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Regarding Palin, it may have been rank ignorance on her part. This is a bit shocking considering that she is effectively the leader of her party. Btw, she has backed off her "death panel" accusation.

2 Replies

Some anecdotal evidence from those who experience that which the Conservatives have told us would be a 'disaster' for America:

Quote:

Another Story from The UK
08.12.09 -- 12:39PM
By Josh Marshall

From TPM Reader EK ...

I am an middle aged, white male American who lives in the UK working for a medium sized US company. The following is a true story about my many years experience of the NHS (National Health Service) in the UK, only the names have been changed to protect the identity of my family.

I live with my wife and son just outside of London. When our son Leo was due to be born, like virtually every family in the UK (rich or poor), we went to our local NHS hospital for the delivery. An unpredictable chain of events resulted in unforeseeable complications during his birth. Leo was born in very poor health and was immediately transferred to a SCBU (Special Care Birth Unit) in another hospital. Because of the severity of Leo's condition we were transferred to the most advanced SCBU in the region.

Leo spent the next three weeks in the SCBU being cared for 24/7 by highly trained nursing staff using the latest technology and a team was formed with about a dozen specialists from around the country working together to ensure Leo's many complex problems were dealt with using the best medical knowledge available. As parents we stayed with Leo in the parents residence just down the hall from the SCBU. Our room was basic, but it had cable TV and we got clean bedding and towels as well as three meals a day for three weeks. How much did all of this cost? I will never know because as a UK resident and taxpayer it was provided as a public service.

By the time Leo was three months old it was obvious he was experiencing many very difficult problems. Leo was referred to one of the top specialists in Europe, a professor consultant in neonatal neurology. The professor determined Leo needed a MRI scan, but because of Leo's small size and constant abnormal movement, no existing scanner could safely be used. It was decided the newest and fastest scanner in the country would be modified to accommodate Leo's situation. When we arrived for the scan we were greeted not only by the professor and her team but by a team of technicians and scientists from the manufacturer. The MRI magnets were partially dismantled and recalibrated and a frame for Leo was built on the spot so he could safely undergo the scanning procedure. How much did all of this cost? I will never know because as a UK resident and taxpayer it was provided as a public service.

The scan showed that Leo had received a profound brain injury before birth. He had many different tests to determine the extent of his disabilities including EEG, X-ray, video fluoroscopy, endoscopy, sight tests, hearing tests, and others. Leo was referred to eight different specialists to deal with his problems and underwent surgery to implant a portal in his stomach so he can be fed directly by tube, without danger of food being "swallowed" into his lungs. Leo's dietary requirements are very special and all food, as well as the daily feeding kits and the pump needed to deliver the feed are provided by the NHS. Leo is on about a dozen different medications and all meds, syringes and other daily disposable equipment are provided by the NHS. Leo has a wheelchair, sitting frame, standing frame, sleep system, leg and hand splints and other equipment, all designed for him and all replaced or adjusted every few months because he is a growing boy. All equipment as well as the technicians who maintain the equipment are provided by the NHS. How much does all of this cost? I will never know because as a UK resident and taxpayer it was provided as a public service.

Is the NHS perfect? Far from it! Can it be more bureaucratic and slower than I would like at times? Of course! Has there ever been an issue about Leo not receiving care because he is profoundly disabled? Never! Have we ever had to stand before a "Death Panel" and justify the vast ongoing expense of Leo's care, even though he will never be a productive member of society? NO! When surveys ask people what is the single thing they are proudest about the UK, the winner is The National Health Service.

This is why the Republicans are dead set against health care reform: it is a political disaster for them.

Cycloptichorn

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@Advocate,

It's probably because her own party found her to be a liability rather than the springing star they thought they had.

From her foreign experience by her state being situated between two foreign countries and her death panel, I wonder what other surprises are in store for us?

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Quote:

At another point, Broun (R-Athens, GA), who last year made national news by comparing Obama to Hitler, called Cuba's former dictator Fidel Castro and leftist Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez Obama's "good buddy."

He also spoke of a "socialistic elite" - Obama, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid - who might use a pandemic disease or natural disaster as an excuse to declare martial law.

"They're trying to develop an environment where they can take over," he said. "We've seen that historically."

http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/081209/new_480756985.shtml

I suppose this counts as official fear-mongering by elected representatives...

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cyclo, Have you noticed that all the rhetoric from the right are all fear-mongering and no solutions.

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@cicerone imposter,

CI wrote:

Even a child knows you can't keep spending money you don't have in your pocket.

Unhhhh, evidently Obama and this Democrat-controlled Congress doesn't understand that, at least according to the the CBO...and this after recent reports show that the federal government spent more than it pocketed a 10th straight month during July...per the Wall Street Journal

Don't understand why everybody can't step back, take a breather and get our economy recovered before we write another trillion dollar check solely on the word of an Administration that has already been proven wrong (some would say lied) on the effectiveness, economies, and timelieness of its other signature initiatives.

2 Replies

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

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