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IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 07:29 pm
@cicerone imposter,
They don't want a universal health care plan....fine. It's their right.

They have OTHER ideas on how to fix healthcare; why is that a problem for you?

And I agree with them on the democrats and the cost issue...the plans I've seen do not do enough to curb costs. And I hope the Blue Dog's squash the bill until there are some real cost cutting measures in there.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 07:35 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

You keep saying this, but I only see them saying no to the the public option and mandatory coverage.

They have ideas for cost reduction (TORT reform, making it easier for small business to join into a group, expanding healthcare spending accounts).

They have ideas for increased coverage (further tax incentives for individuals and businesses).


Just because you don't like their ideas doesn't mean that they don't exist.


Hmm, it's hard for me to see how these things are going to actually help the situation -

Tort Reform, there's no actual evidence that this has led to higher insurance prices at all. The incidence and payout of medical malpractice payment has not risen significantly in the last decade, yet health care prices have risen double-digits per year.

Making it easier for small businesses to join group coverage - this is just a half-assed way of implementing a public option. It might have some small benefit, for those who work in small businesses, but it certainly won't do anything to control costs at all.

Health care spending accounts - this is to me just a way of promoting the overall Republican goal of getting rid of medicare and any sort of safety net at all. It is entirely analogous to the 'retirement savings accounts' that are proposed to replace SS.

Tax incentives, this is really a joke for individuals. If you can't afford your health care, getting a larger tax return at the end of the year doesn't help you one bit. For businesses, it's just another tax handout of the same flavor Republicans love to give.

Most importantly, none of these ideas do anything to address the millions of people who cannot get affordable health care due to their pre-existing conditions. It is a horror. These Republican ideas are primarily targeted, as usual, at helping businesses and the rich - who will then deign to help the rest of us.

No thanks.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 07:38 pm
@maporsche,
Quote:

And I agree with them on the democrats and the cost issue...the plans I've seen do not do enough to curb costs. And I hope the Blue Dog's squash the bill until there are some real cost cutting measures in there.


The public option is the cost-cutting measure. It places immense pressure upon private insurers to operate in a more efficient and less profitable manner. The very existence of this program would lead to cost savings almost immediately, as companies are forced to justify spending on much more expensive health care plans instead of the cheaper, profit-free public plan.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 07:39 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I don't know what all their ideas are, these are just the one's I could remember while I was posting.

And I'm NOT saying that they will fix the problem.

I'm rebutting CI's REPEATED, and REPEATED, and REPEATED, and UNHELPFUL slams against "the party of no", when they are presenting ideas.

Maybe they're not good ideas; but that's a different beast than saying that they aren't presenting ANY ideas.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 08:14 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche, The biggest problem with all the suggestions made by the conservatives are really no suggestion at all; they are toss aways that mean absolutely nothing. I've been following the conservatives "suggestions" ever since the democrats took over the congress two years ago. Their ultimate aim is to send the message to their constituents is that they're not agreeing with the democratic congress on anything.

That's the reason why many media and writers now call them the "No Party." There's good reason for that.

If they have made legitimate suggestions, please list them for me, because to be honest I may have missed something they suggested that may be legit.
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 08:17 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You're not being objective CI, that's the only problem I see here.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 08:23 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

You're not being objective CI, that's the only problem I see here.


Hmm, I dunno. If people are offering solutions which don't do anything to address the real problems, they aren't exactly offering solutions to the problems - they are using the problem to address other goals of theirs.

Cycloptichorn
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 08:26 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I think you and they just disagree on what the problems are.

If you can't agree on the problems, there's little chance you'll agree on the solutions. Which isn't a problem for the Dems in Congress right now, they have the votes (if THEY can all agree).

I don't know why people are insisting on a homogeneous government. I LIKE that there are different opinions on both the problems and the solutions.
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 08:32 pm


Obama and democrats are using the problem to address other goals
of theirs, Obamacare has nothing to do with health care... it never did.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 08:36 pm
@maporsche,
There's a huge difference between "homogeneity" and not participating in the country's problems to help solve them as members of congress.

Quote:
At a moment when the country needs our help, it would be a great mistake for the House GOP to turn inward and simply become the party of "no." We want our new president to succeed, and America needs our new President to succeed, which is why we will contribute the full force of our ideas to help him navigate the choppy waters. That's why our leadership met with the president three times to offer him our ideas on the stimulus, including among other proposals a reduction in small business tax liability by 20 percent.

Of course, all 178 Republicans in the House refused to vote for the stimulus package.


maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 08:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
This is why I'm questioning your objectivity.

I voted for Obama, and I think the Republicans who voted against the stimulus were actually voting the correct way. There should not have been any stimulus passed. They voted towards solving the country's problems (which is and will continue to be, overconsumption), by not propping up the lies that our economy is based upon.

I'm sure I'm not completely objective either, but you're going off the deep end here. It's like you've put on blinders where it's impossible for you to see where they're coming from.
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 08:54 pm
@maporsche,
I'm not rereading this thread, egads, but did anyone read Atul Gawande's long article on health care in the new yorker of two weeks ago? It was very interesting, not all private or public, yadda yadda, but about how practices are organized, and the whys and wherefores.
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 09:10 pm
@ossobuco,
Perhaps this has been sited before. The article made me think things are more complicated than this, or, then, that.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2009/06/atul-gawande-the-cost-conundrum-redux.html

Alas, it's not easy to read if you don't subscribe (grrrrrr.)
Abstract -

JUNE 23, 2009
ATUL GAWANDE: THE COST CONUNDRUM REDUX

In my June 1st article, “The Cost Conundrum,” I explored the question of why two border towns in Texas of similar size, location, and circumstances"McAllen and El Paso"should cost Medicare such enormously different amounts of money. In 2006, McAllen cost $14,946 per enrollee, which is the second-highest in the United States and essentially double El Paso’s cost of $7,504 per enrollee. Analysis of Medicare data by the Dartmouth Atlas project shows the difference is due to marked differences in the amount of care ordered for patients"patients in McAllen receive vastly more diagnostic tests, hospital admissions, operations, specialist visits, and home nursing care than in El Paso. But quality of care in McAllen is not appreciably better, and by some measures, it is worse. Indeed, studies have shown that the care for patients in the highest-cost regions of the country tends to go this way"with more high-cost care across the board, but less low-cost preventive services and primary care, and equal or worse survival, functional ability, and satisfaction with care. The cause that I found locally was a system of care that was highly fragmented for patients and often driven to maximize revenues over patient needs. And I pointed to positive outliers across the country, including Grand Junction, Colorado, and the Mayo Clinic that deliver markedly lower-cost, higher-quality care.

The depth of response the piece received has been orders of magnitude greater than I anticipated. The most gratifying for me has been the overwhelming volume of supportive letters, e-mails, and blog postings from fellow physicians, nurses, and other clinicians who felt that it captured the difficulties they’ve had struggling against a system that pushes them for quantity over quality and fragments care in ways that are costly and dangerous to patients.

But there have also been a few skeptics, who claim, in essence, that the costs of care in McAllen are what they should be for good medicine. They raise three major objections to the article’s findings.

What about McAllen’s many “Winter Texans”"retirees who live elsewhere but come for the warm weather in the winter and inflate the local costs of care? But in the Dartmouth Atlas, the Medicare costs for an enrollee are counted against their permanent place of residence. The cost of these “snowbirds” are excluded for McAllen.
The real culprit is medical malpractice. McAllen is a “judicial hellhole” and doctors are practicing defensive medicine, ordering unnecessary tests to protect themselves against lawsuits, and that is driving the difference. Yet El Paso and McAllen function under the same Texas malpractice laws that capped malpractice awards in 2003. As doctors there noted to me, premiums have gone down substantially, reflecting the major drop in lawsuits. And even if McAllen doctors were especially fearful of lawsuits, it is hard to imagine that “defensive medicine” would lead to McAllen’s vastly greater number of pacemaker insertions, knee replacements, carotid operations, coronary artery stents, or home-nursing visits. Certainly the doctors I spoke to there did not think lawsuit fears affect their decisions for surgical therapies and other such interventions.
McAllen is three times poorer and unhealthier"and has legions more illegal immigrants"than low-cost, well-served communities like Grand Junction, Colorado. That’s why the comparison in health-care delivery was between McAllen and El Paso. The purpose of discussing these places was to understand what medical communities that have low-cost and high-quality care do differently. They find ways to blunt financial incentives that drive unnecessary care, ways for clinicians to collaborate much more effectively for patients, and ways for the organization to accept accountability for improving the overall results of both outpatient and inpatient care. There are, in fact, examples of exactly this in Texas itself. Scott and White Memorial Hospital has brought Temple, Texas, higher Medicare quality scores than McAllen hospitals, higher patient satisfaction, and the lowest costs in the state ($7,015 per enrollee) by building an accountable care organization that we could learn a great deal from.

As I noted in the piece, McAllen is indeed in the poorest county in the country (Hidalgo County), with a relatively unhealthy population and the problems of being a border city. They have a very low physician supply. The struggles the people and medical community face there are huge. But they are just as huge in El Paso"its residents are barely less poor or unhealthy or under-supplied with physicians than McAllen, and certainly not enough so to account for the enormous cost differences. The population in McAllen also has more hospital beds than four out of five American cities. Here are a few salient facts for comparison [note: the following tables have been reformatted so readers can access source information]:


McAllen El Paso
City median household income, 2007 $39,727 $35,646
Poverty rate, 2007 27.3% 27.4%
Hispanic population 80.3% 76.6%
Hidalgo County El Paso County Texas
Per capita income rank by county 2007 #1 poorest in U.S. #6 poorest in U.S.
Per capita income, county, 2007 $30,295 $34,980
Unemployment, 2006 7.4% 6.7%
Unemployment, 2008 7.3% 6.3%
Deaths from Cardiovascular Disease, Rate per 100,000 251.7 235.3 299.1
Asthma rates among adults 2001-2006 5.3 5.2 6.9
Cases of AIDS/Rate per 100,000 9.8 12.5 7.4
Infant Deaths/Rate per 1,000 3.9 4.0 6.3
Cancer Incidence, Rate per 100,000 2001-2005 516.6 420.1 542.0
McAllen Hospital Referral Region El Paso Hospital Referral Region
Physician supply, # per 100,000 (rank) 114 (#1 worst) 144 (#10 worst)
Hospital beds, # per 100,000 (percentile rank) 3.2 (83rd percentile) 2.3 (42nd percentile)
(A jpeg image of the tables is also available online.)

By any measure, McAllen’s poverty and poor health fails to account for its differences from El Paso. St. Louis is just as poor as McAllen (it is ranked the third-poorest county or independent city in the U.S.). Its cost per Medicare enrollee? $8,306. Poverty and poor health are grievous problems for many communities. But in addressing these problems, they don’t spend twice the national average on health care, while achieving no better results than similar communities.

One last point worth remembering here: McAllen’s spending was almost identical to El Paso’s in the early nineteen-nineties. By the late nineties, however, it had become one of the most expensive regions in the country for Medicare and it has continued that way. Yet, public data show no sudden decline in health status or income for the McAllen population.

The biggest changes? A dramatic rate of overutilization during a period that saw a marked expansion in physician-owned imaging centers, surgery centers, hospital facilities, and physician-revenue-sharing by home-health agencies. Home-health agencies there, for example, spent more than $3,500 per Medicare beneficiary"not only five times more than in El Paso, but also more than half what many communities spend on all patient care. In the end, none of the criticisms address either the pattern of overtreatment found in multiple studies of high-cost communities or the specific instances I found of revenue-driven care among doctors and executives in McAllen.

One methodological question is whether Medicare spending patterns differ from private-insurance spending patterns. There are indeed differences, because the prices Medicare pays doctors, hospitals, and others for services are not the same as the prices that private insurance pays. But, as a series of Dartmouth studies have shown, when it comes to how many services are provided per patient, the utilization patterns for the over-65 Medicare population are similar to those in the under-65 population.

As we look across the enormous differences in health-care spending in our country, what we are witnessing are enormous differences in the way medicine is practiced. There are lessons to be learned from examining what the positive outliers do differently to prevent themselves from going McAllen’s way. Studying what they have accomplished, and changing the financial incentives in our system to replicate it, could make care far better for patients in McAllen. Indeed, it could make care far better for patients across the country.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 09:16 pm
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j186/DonaldDouglas/Americaneocon/Loretta_Sanchez_Tea_Party_2.jpg

http://americanelephant.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/ObamaCare-web.png
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 09:59 pm
@maporsche,
I may be wrong, but I disagree with you about the stimulus plan. The only disagreement I have with it are the extent to which Obama has expanded too many of the social services at a time when tax revenues are dropping. He could have waited for those that were not considered emergencies, and implemented them as our economy improved.

The other issue is that it was necessary for our government to step in to stop the bleeding of jobs. I consider that national security as much as we spend money on our defense system. During WWII, our country spent over 100% of our GDP to to support the war efforts in Europe and Asia. That was also for our security.

This economic crisis would have gotten much worse without government intervention. If left on its own, I believe the speed at which we were losing jobs in this country would have increased to levels not seen since the great depression. Once the stimulus plan starts to take hold this half of the year into next year, we will begin to see some improvement in jobs. That also means that our tax base at all levels of government will begin to improve.

There are some signs already that our economy is improving - even as job loss slows down. Housing starts is in its second month of plusses, and some of the large companies are showing profit - even some banks (*although they aren't reliable trends at this point) are showing profits. Some banks have also returned TARP money to the feds. If you have watched the bank stocks since last year into this year, their values have shown great improvement. Stock equity investments are on the increase, a good sign that confidence in our economy is improving.

I sold off my money market funds last month and purchased three funds, and those have already shown over 4% paper profit. My timing on the stock market has been pretty good; our losses from last year was much better than the average by 50%.

Of coarse I would still like to see more positives in our economy during the next several months to ensure we have passed the worst of this recession. I still have jitters about the job market and so many losing their homes.

Let's hope my guesstimates are at least partially right.

Even the pundits are saying our economy will see progress by this year end.
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 24 Jul, 2009 05:16 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:



Even the pundits are saying our economy will see progress by this year end.


Shocked

All indications point to worsening conditions and no relief until after Obama is gone.
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 24 Jul, 2009 06:32 am

One positive result of Obama's bonehead remark concerning Gates arrest is that it has
effectively taken the white house completely off their socialized health care message.

http://www.foxnews.com/images/root_images/fakepath072409_oanger_20090724_020843.jpg

With any luck, Obamacare will be defeated.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jul, 2009 06:49 am
@H2O MAN,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Even the pundits are saying our economy will see progress by this year end.


You should know better by now not to trust what the pundits are saying. The news channels have ZERO credibility after what we've seen happen in the last year.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jul, 2009 07:03 am
@H2O MAN,
Quote:
All indications point to worsening conditions and no relief until after Obama is gone.


Quote:
Dow tops 9,000 on earnings, U.S. housing data

* Oil prices soar to three-week high on Wall Street's rise

* Dollar, euro gain vs yen as US data spurs recovery hopes

* Stocks rally, looming supply knock government debt lower (Adds close of U.S. markets)

By Herbert Lash

NEW YORK, July 23 (Reuters) - Crude oil jumped and Wall Street surged 2 percent on Thursday, pushing the Dow to an eight-month closing high, after improving U.S. home sales and strong corporate results spurred optimism that economic recovery is under way.

The Dow pushed above the 9,000 mark, rising 188 points, in a broad rally that lifted all 10 sectors of the benchmark S&P 500 into positive territory. The Nasdaq posted its 12th consecutive gain -- its longest winning streak since 1992.




source

Not claiming it has anything to do with the stimulus package, or even that it means we are home free in the economy issue, but at least like DTOM said, it is some good news.

H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 24 Jul, 2009 07:10 am
@revel,
revel wrote:


Not claiming it has anything to do with the stimulus package, or even that it means we are home free in the economy issue, but at least like DTOM said, it is some good news.




Cap & Trade and Obamacare will reverse this temporary time of "good news" with a quickness.
0 Replies
 
 

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