65
   

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 04:25 pm
USAFHokie80 wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
When we were kids, we used to burn wood with a magnifying glass. In many parts of the world, it gets hot enough to fry an egg on the sidewalk.


You're right, you can use giant (and i mean GIANT) parabolic mirrors to focus light into a steam engine and it will produce power, but these devices take up huge amounts of space (they're about 27' in diameter).

my bad.


There's one in spain that provides power to several thousand homes.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 04:39 pm
I think that virtually every futurist says that solar power will soon be ubiquitous, and that those in individual homes (with access to the sun) will benefit greatly.
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 04:47 pm
Advocate wrote:
I think that virtually every futurist says that solar power will soon be ubiquitous, and that those in individual homes (with access to the sun) will benefit greatly.


Too bad we have clouds, and seasons. Solar power cannot sustain energy needs. The most efficient solar cells only run at slight less than 50% and are mae of very rare, very expensive materials. The easier-to-find solar cells drop down to the teens and single digits for efficiency.

The most promising of solar tech is the culminating type where a huge reflector focus light onto a small type of regenerative steam engine. The problem with this is that they take up huge amounts of space. To produce a meaningful amount of power, fields of these devices must be used together. And of course, there are still clouds and seasons. Not to mention, they don't handle wind very well - considering their shape...
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 04:51 pm
USAFHokie80 wrote:
Advocate wrote:
I think that virtually every futurist says that solar power will soon be ubiquitous, and that those in individual homes (with access to the sun) will benefit greatly.


Too bad we have clouds, and seasons. Solar power cannot sustain energy needs. The most efficient solar cells only run at slight less than 50% and are mae of very rare, very expensive materials. The easier-to-find solar cells drop down to the teens and single digits for efficiency.

The most promising of solar tech is the culminating type where a huge reflector focus light onto a small type of regenerative steam engine. The problem with this is that they take up huge amounts of space. To produce a meaningful amount of power, fields of these devices must be used together. And of course, there are still clouds and seasons. Not to mention, they don't handle wind very well - considering their shape...



Solar power will make more and more sense as other power sources become more expensive. Moreover, there will surely be technical improvements in this area.
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 05:00 pm
Solar cells have existed for a long time... there is a limit to their efficiency. I think nuclear power is a far more effective means of power generation. The trick will be to manage fusion on our planet.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 05:02 pm
USAFHokie80 wrote:
Solar cells have existed for a long time... there is a limit to their efficiency. I think nuclear power is a far more effective means of power generation. The trick will be to manage fusion on our planet.


Solar efficiency can go up quite a bit before we hit a theoretical limit. We're nowhere even close to it right now.

I agree that fusion should be the long-term goal... we should increase spending on the research.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 05:10 pm
Solar power is already practical. See:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2006/01/25/gree.DTL
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 05:28 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
$1 per watt is the production cost for the power generation plant, as far as I can tell. Once the unit is created, the price per watt for solar is close to zero! And that's counting upkeep. Coal on the other hand...

Construction of a coal or gas fired powerplant costs MUCH less than $1/watt.

You are forgetting the operating costs for (1) land use; (2) maintenance & inspection; (3) metering and transmission. So far on this subject it is clear that you are talking well past what you know and understand.
Zilch for credibility.
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Maybe we would see more of these plans become reality if we invested in them a little heavier then we currently do.

Cycloptichorn
Who is "we" for investment purposes? I can assure you the major power producers (Exelon, Dominion, Duke Energy, Entergy, Constellation, etc) are all short of generating capacity and are strongly motivated to invest in the cheapest source available. The fact is they invest in solar and wind power ONLY when the law requires it precisely because it is MUCH more expensive.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 05:39 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
$1 per watt is the production cost for the power generation plant, as far as I can tell. Once the unit is created, the price per watt for solar is close to zero! And that's counting upkeep. Coal on the other hand...

Construction of a coal or gas fired powerplant costs MUCH less than $1/watt.

You are forgetting the operating costs for (1) land use; (2) maintenance & inspection; (3) metering and transmission. So far on this subject it is clear that you are talking well past what you know and understand.
Zilch for credibility.


Woah! Hold dem horses a bit there.

Land use - solar panels fit quite nicely on top of other buildings. Land usage is cheaper then any other type of instillation.

Maintenance - It's hard to imagine that maintenance would be more expensive for solar panels, in which there are no moving parts, then for coal plants. It certainly takes less people to maintain and run them.

Metering and Transmission - I had assumed that, as energy is energy, the costs of metering and transmission of solar panels would be similar to a coal plant. Do you have some information as to why they wouldn't be? Also, you can place small solar plants in more localized areas, right down to the roof of buildings. Less transmission and metering costs by FAR then with conventional power plants there, as there simply is far less distance to pump the electrons.

Cost of creation - From wikipedia's article on Coal plants:

Quote:
\textrm{Fuel} + \textrm{Oxygen} \rightarrow \; \textrm{Heat} + \textrm{Carbon\ dioxide} + \textrm{Water}

All fossil fuels generate carbon dioxide when burned. Other products of incomplete combustion are sulfur dioxide (predominantly in coal) and oxides of nitrogen; since no fossil fuel power plant is able to burn the fuel perfectly as seen in complete combustion, such products are always produced in some quantity. Each fossil fuel power plant is a highly complex, custom-designed system. Present construction costs, as of 2004, run to US$1,300 per kilowatt, or $650 million for a 500 MW unit. Multiple generating units may be built at a single site for more efficient use of land, natural resources and labor.


Hmm, 650 million dollars for a 500 MW unit is more expensive then a dollar a watt, George. Please link to some evidence supporting your position that coal plants are in fact cheaper to build then $1 a watt.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Maybe we would see more of these plans become reality if we invested in them a little heavier then we currently do.

Quote:
Who is "we" for investment purposes? I can assure you the major power producers (Exelon, Dominion, Duke Energy, Entergy, Constellation, etc) are all short of generating capacity and are strongly motivated to invest in the cheapest source available. The fact is they invest in solar and wind power ONLY when the law requires it precisely because it is MUCH more expensive.


This is true; but that is changing rapidly as new technologies emerge.

There shouldn't even be anything surprising about this; this is the natural cycle of product development, in which superior technologies supersede inferior ones over time. But you seem to be convinced that this can never happen.

I've already agreed with you that Nuke plants are a necessary part of our system; why can't you accept the idea that solar power is growing ever more efficient?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 06:05 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Land use - solar panels fit quite nicely on top of other buildings. Land usage is cheaper then any other type of instillation.

Maintenance - It's hard to imagine that maintenance would be more expensive for solar panels, in which there are no moving parts, then for coal plants. It certainly takes less people to maintain and run them.

Metering and Transmission - I had assumed that, as energy is energy, the costs of metering and transmission of solar panels would be similar to a coal plant. Do you have some information as to why they wouldn't be? Also, you can place small solar plants in more localized areas, right down to the roof of buildings. Less transmission and metering costs by FAR then with conventional power plants there, as there simply is far less distance to pump the electrons.


Solar panels on top of buildings don't produce enough power to light & heat the building, much less export it. In fact mass production of solar power takes orders of magnitude more land than any other source (except perhaps wind power). Land use costs are far greater than other sources. A larger number of much smaller plants will significantly raise the costs of transmission, metering, and on site maintenance per unit of power produced (inverse economies of scale). There is a very small gain in the reduces transmission losses when the source is nearer the load.

The fact is that generous state subsidies even in California have not been sufficient to motivate people to spend the large extra sums required to build and operate solar plants or even local applications. if it is so cheap, how do you account for that.

Don't know the source for the Wickopedia claim that 2004 coal fired plants cost about $1.20/watt to construct. The current industry figure is closer to $1.00. The appropriate measure is construction plus operating costs, in present dollars, with fixed costs amortized over the expected plant life. That's how the economic decisions are made (except for nuclear, where regulatory concerns dominate).



Cycloptichorn[/quote]
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 06:10 pm
Quote:

The fact is that generous state subsidies even in California have not been sufficient to motivate people to spend the large extra sums required to build and operate solar plants or even local applications. if it is so cheap, how do you account for that.


The cheapest/most efficient solar panels today are available from Nanosolar in CA. Their big fab only came online about 3 months ago. Their first 3 years of production are already sold out. This is pretty new stuff. They are cheap and run at around 14% efficiency. You could side your house with them easily enough, or put them on the roofs of buildings, and it would produce a significant amount of the energy inside.

You're right - it's not a replacement technology for Nukes or lesser traditional power generation sources! It's an augmentation technology which is scalable. Over time more and more of our power will be provided by solar. Research into further efficiency gains - like the ones you pooh-pahd out of hand - will only increase this.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 06:12 pm
I'm getting tired of these pie-in-the-sky solar power collectors. Here are the actual numbers:

Quote:

Large solar concentrator power plants would be built....

A new direct-current power transmission backbone would deliver solar electricity across the country.

But $420 billion in subsidies from 2011 to 2050 would be required to fund the infrastructure and make it cost-competitive.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-plan

If we're going to shell out $420 billion the money will be better spent on fusion reactor research. Btw: on same link is obituary of "clean coal" plant - seem that project would require even more than $420 billion to implement.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 06:15 pm
High Seas wrote:
I'm getting tired of these pie-in-the-sky solar power collectors. Here are the actual numbers:

Quote:

Large solar concentrator power plants would be built....

A new direct-current power transmission backbone would deliver solar electricity across the country.

But $420 billion in subsidies from 2011 to 2050 would be required to fund the infrastructure and make it cost-competitive.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-plan

If we're going to shell out $420 billion the money will be better spent on fusion reactor research. Btw: on same link is obituary of "clean coal" plant - seem that project would require even more than $420 billion to implement.


That's quite a bit cheaper then the Iraq war. We should have invested our money more wisely.

I also forgot to add something in my response to George: The figures for operating coal plants most specifically do not include the monies that it takes to clean up the environmental waste produced by constantly pumping tons of harmful chemicals into the air. But they ought to be taken into account.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 06:16 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

You're right - it's not a replacement technology for Nukes or lesser traditional power generation sources! It's an augmentation technology which is scalable. Over time more and more of our power will be provided by solar. Research into further efficiency gains - like the ones you pooh-pahd out of hand - will only increase this.

Cycloptichorn


Perhaps so, but it will take several decades - even assuming the technology advances in the coming years much faster than it has in the last five or so. The current estimate is that solar power production might increase as much as fourfold in the next dacade, though a mere doubling is more likely. That means it might grow to as much as about 5% of our total consumption. Not a very big deal.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 06:20 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
High Seas wrote:
...............

If we're going to shell out $420 billion the money will be better spent on fusion reactor research. Btw: on same link is obituary of "clean coal" plant - seem that project would require even more than $420 billion to implement.


That's quite a bit cheaper then the Iraq war. We should have invested our money more wisely.

I also forgot to add something in my response to George: The figures for operating coal plants most specifically do not include the monies that it takes to clean up the environmental waste produced by constantly pumping tons of harmful chemicals into the air. But they ought to be taken into account.

Cycloptichorn


Cycl - externalities, these are called. They never figure into financial analysis. That was George's point on regulatory costs of nuclear energy.

Please try and follow here, and stop conflating megawatts and megatons, or whatever your war reference was about Smile
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 06:26 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

You're right - it's not a replacement technology for Nukes or lesser traditional power generation sources! It's an augmentation technology which is scalable. Over time more and more of our power will be provided by solar. Research into further efficiency gains - like the ones you pooh-pahd out of hand - will only increase this.

Cycloptichorn


Perhaps so, but it will take several decades - even assuming the technology advances in the coming years much faster than it has in the last five or so. The current estimate is that solar power production might increase as much as fourfold in the next dacade, though a mere doubling is more likely. That means it might grow to as much as about 5% of our total consumption. Not a very big deal.


I'm sure some investment on the part of our government could help speed that process along. Two thoughts:

1st, people are willing to pay more for power that comes from non-pollutive sources. Solar doesn't have to be directly cheaper for it to be a profitable product, though not a replacement product.

2nd, if it increases four-fold in the next decade and just doubles the decade after that - that's a lot of power. If it doubles again, that's a whole lot of our power. You are correct that it will take a while, but most plans for solar throw around dates like 2040 or 2050. Seems conservative especially given the potential for efficiency gains.

Our US aerospace companies would have invented space flight and gone to the moon all by their lonesome without any governmental money spent on them. Just would have taken a hell of a lot longer. I see no reason to believe that a modest investment by Americans in solar - and nuke, be it fission or fusion - couldn't help us speed our energy independence along tremendously.

High Seas,

My war reference was to the simple fact that if we had not gone to war in Iraq, we would have enough money to pay for the solar plan you linked to. In its' entirety. Those who say we can't afford such things never complain about the costs of wars, and therefore I believe have their priorities a little out of whack.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 06:57 pm
What we need to do is develpo solar energy systems that will pay off the capital investment in a reasonable period of time. China now uses coal to produce 80% of their energy, and they need to convert to solar energy or continue to pollute their environment which is not good for their health. Other developing countries will be increasing demand for solar energy: we need to take advantage of the future demand.
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 07:04 pm
High Seas wrote:
I'm getting tired of these pie-in-the-sky solar power collectors. Here are the actual numbers:

Quote:

Large solar concentrator power plants would be built....

A new direct-current power transmission backbone would deliver solar electricity across the country.

But $420 billion in subsidies from 2011 to 2050 would be required to fund the infrastructure and make it cost-competitive.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-plan

If we're going to shell out $420 billion the money will be better spent on fusion reactor research. Btw: on same link is obituary of "clean coal" plant - seem that project would require even more than $420 billion to implement.


DC will never be used to transmit power. There are *good* reasons we use AC. Firstly, produce of electricity from a generator is already alternating... Secondly, to transmit long distances, we need very high voltage. You cannot multiply (transform) DC power, only AC. Also, DC has a tendancy to produce a lot of heat in its medium. AC does this to a much lesser extent. DC is also MUCH more dangerous when in contact with a human.
0 Replies
 
bathsheba
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 09:27 pm
Oh.....I seee.....this thread isn't really about universal health care, it's about solar power. Why didn't you say so? Rolling Eyes Smile

In case someone might be misled into thinking that this thread is about Universal Health Care I thought I'd post the following.

Europe versus the U.S. - a health-care comparison
By Stephanie Hittle
For Health Care Today

Health care comes in different packages, depending where and how that health care is delivered.

How does health care in the United States compare with other countries such as England and Germany? What are the pros and cons of various forms of health-care systems? Which system is best?

"There is no perfect system. You can't make everyone happy. People in Sweden have notoriously good health outcomes, and not everybody in Sweden is happy with their health care," said Rachel Irwin, a Centerville native and graduate student at the London School of Economics in London, England, where she studies international health policy. She is also a consultant on evaluating effectiveness in nonprofit organizations.

Some health-care programs work better than others, however, and the United States has multiple problems, according to Irwin, who has studied the systems of European countries and the United States.

Irwin said health-care delivery systems in developed nations are categorized by how they are funded, which is usually in one of three ways ?- through taxation, social insurance or private insurance. Third world countries rarely have organized systems of health-care delivery and often rely on NGOs ?- nongovernment organizations (charities) to provide health care to their citizens. Corporations with plants in those countries often provide their own health care to their own employees.

"Social health insurance is where the employer and, usually the employee, make contributions based on their abilities to pay," said Irwin, who added that social health insurance is often erroneously referred to as socialized medicine. "It has nothing to do with a political ideology."

In social health insurance, monies go into a sickness fund, usually based on occupation or geographical location or both, according to Irwin. This sickness fund functions like an insurance company, but typically is not for profit or is allowed profit only on supplemental insurance. People in more populated areas usually have more options for providers of health care and therefore more choices, compared with someone in a rural area, where availability may be an issue and the sickness fund may have geographic boundaries.

"The German social health system started as tradesmen pooling their funds to help one another in times of sickness during medieval times," Irwin said. For example, she said Germany has a Sailor's Fund, originally organized around the needs of that occupation. Sickness funds are usually self-governing; although the government influences the contribution rates.

Unlike the U.S. private insurance system, the German sickness funds are not based on risk, and everyone is covered.

"It is compulsory for the whole population to be in a fund. Everyone is required to be in it except for the top 10 percent of the highest income earners in the country," said Irwin, adding that those persons can fund their own health care. The government puts in monies for persons who are unemployed. The government also handles disability payments in times when a person can't work.

Irwin said most recipients of this system are happy with it.

Tax-financed health care, often referred to as nationalized health care, is the delivery system of choice for United Kingdom and Scandinavian countries. How the tax is applied ?- through income and property or through sales tax, differs depending on the country.

Irwin acknowledged that in this type of system wait times for elective surgery can be longer than in the United States.

On the plus side, tax-financed health care covers everyone and the quality of care is usually good, according to Irwin.

The United States health-care system is considered private, but Irwin points out that with 47 percent of health-care funding coming from the government, the term "private" is misleading.

"Forty-seven percent of health-care dollars are spent on Medicaid, Medicare and public hospitals," Irwin said.

The other touted "plus" of private insurance is the concept of risk. Insurance companies use formularies to calculate risk of those they insure.

"It is hard to calculate probability in health care," said Irwin, who stressed that insuring the human body is not the same as insuring a car. The latter is based on static, objective criteria. The former is not. "Health has a lot of unknowns."

Irwin also pointed out that those people who need insurance the most are precluded from getting it due to pre-existing condition clauses in insurance policies.

Then there are the problems with cost. Irwin said that in European countries the health-care spending per capita are from $2,500 to $4,000. In the United States, it is $6,000.

"That is a huge jump," Irwin said. "We are throwing money at health care but still not getting anywhere."

"The argument that people will become healthier because of risk doesn't hold up. Look at Americans," Irwin said. "Americans are among the most overweight populations in the world."

Americans also lead Europe in heart disease (nearly double), high blood pressure, stroke and diabetes as well as ten other major medical concerns.

And not everyone is covered.

Irwin also has a bachelor's degree in medical anthropology and German studies from Case Western University in Cleveland and a master's degree in medical anthropology from Oxford University in Oxford, England. Medical anthropology is the study of health within various cultural contexts. She stressed that choices in how health care is funded and delivered are based on social, historical and cultural factors.

"In Denmark," Irwin said, "there is a lot of social cohesion ... and wanting to help one's fellow Dane. They see someone who is sick or poor and they want to help them."

Irwin can be reached at [email protected].

Stephanie Hittle is a licensed professional clinical counselor with South Suburban Mental Health Group in Centerville.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 01:17 am
There was a tv special not long ago about universal health care, and they mentioned that the homogeneity may answer why all Danes wish to see everybody with health care. In the US, we have over 150 countries represented, and that may make the difference why not all Americans wish to have universal health care.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2026 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.14 seconds on 03/15/2026 at 05:04:18