Is U.S. income tax invalid?

Tryagain wrote:

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BTW I should mention I had to ban Setanta from this thread,
because she was treating it as a joke!

Is that POSSIBLE ?
HOW do u ban anyone from a thread ?
( Shows how ignorant I am. )

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O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.

With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!

From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

If he stands on guard,
he will probably be unarmed; maybe he can cry out in dismay.
I don 't believe he likes guns much.

David

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"His analysis of the US Constitution will stand or fall on its own merits, whether he goes to Canadia or to Mars." "It's not often that I am accused of being to the LEFT of ANYTHING."

No offence intended partner, It's just I am to the right of the Spanish Inquisition.

"HOW do u ban anyone from a thread ?"

First you gotta find yourself a libberrall, then slowly wind him up till he hollers; then just like a slinkie, he cannot resist going down the stairs head first! Alternatively, they keep their passwords close to their chests, so you have gotta get in close; if you know what I mean. However, I have found that if you simply (TEXT DELETED - entry protocol violation) and it is just that easy.

David rather wittily wrote, "If he stands on guard, he will probably be unarmed; maybe he can cry out in dismay."

That has got to be the funniest line ever; I wish I had written it!

WHY OUR FOREFATHERS FOUGHT THE FED

"Allow me to control the issue and the nation's money and I care not who makes its laws!"

The above quote has long been attributed to the 18th century banker Amshell Rothschild (his blood line controls the FED). For if one unscrupulous group is allowed to print a nation's money - it can eventually use that money to gain control of the press AND the politicians - and thus gain control of making the nation's laws - and finally - control of the nation itself.

If you will take the time to read the reference material you will turn up information that might frighten you. For instance, in 1921 the stockholders of the Federal Reserve financed an organization called the "Council on Foreign Relations" (CFR).

Harpers magazine called this the most powerful organization in the United States. Ninety percent of the people in the State Department and key positions in the Executive Branch are members of the CFR. The CFR publishes a magazine called "Foreign Affairs." Read it if you want to know what is going to happen in coming years. The CFR is in favor of a New World Order.

Congressman Patman re-quoted Thomas Jefferson showing that the founding fathers knew this banking principle very well.

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies...." "Already they have raised up a money aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power (of money)," he said, "should be taken from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs."

The American Revolution was a struggle to wrest control of wealth from the Bank of England and to restore the centers of power to the People where it "properly belongs." The Constitution is specific about the authority of the People, through their elected officials, to control the money, and thus, the affairs of their government.

Ben Franklin said in his autobiography that the inability of the colonists to get the power to issue their own money permanently out of the hands of George III and the international bankers was [one of] the PRIME reason[s] for the Revolutionary War.

Thomas Jefferson stated, "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

Jefferson warned of it and you ignored him. I said it and you called me an idiot!

Wake up and smell the coffeeIt has already happened; the bankers are controlling your lives!

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WHO SUPPORTS THE FED?

Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh of Minnesota said:

"This [Federal Reserve] Act establishes the most gigantic trust on Earth. When the President [Wilson] signs this bill, the invisible government of the Monetary Power will be legalized... the worst legislative crime of the ages, perpetuated by this banking and currency bill."

Robert H. Hemphill (Credit Manager, Federal Reserve Bank in Atlanta):

"We are completely dependent on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash, or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system. When one gets a complete grasp of the picture, the tragic absurdity of our hopeless position is almost incredible, but there it is. It [the banking problem] is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects are remedied very soon."

Napoleon, a sympathizer for the international bankers, turned against them in the last years of his rule. He said:

"When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes... Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."

Congresspeople have referred to Federal Reserve Notes as "FIAT" (no- backing) money.

In 1879 the Supreme Court declared that the U.S. Government can legally issue United States Notes, debt and interest-free, just as Lincoln and Kennedy attempted.

A bank that attempted to repossess property on the basis of default faced Judge Mahoney in a jury trial. Jerome Daly was found innocent. The bank could not foreclose on the property because it created the loan money from thin air, as many banks do. Use this as a precedent the next time any bank tries to foreclose on your house.

California 9th Circuit Court declared FED banks are private, not government.

Mr. Marriner Eccles, who was Chairman of the board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System longer than any other man, testified before the Joint Economic Committee in August 1962. When Chairman Rep. Wright Patman asked whether it was not a fact that the Federal Reserve System has more power than either the Congress or the President, Eccles replied: "In the field of money and credit, yes."

Dr. Hans F. Sennholz, Chairman of the Department of Economics at Grove City (PA) College stated:

"The Federal Reserve System facilitates the government's own inflationary financing in "periods of emergency." It makes easy the inflationary financing of budget deficits and the inflationary refunding of government loans. It stabilizes the government bond market through inflationary methods and manipulates this market to the advantage of the government. It does all this by wrecking the purchasing power of the dollar; by subtly stealing from the people of this country what it thus provides for the government, through a process exactly on par with the coin clipping of ancient kings but much less visible."

Source: Banking Act of 1935, Hearings before a Subcommittee of the Banking and Currency Committee, U.S. Senate, 74th Congress, 1st Session, on S.1715, May 1935, pp 871-2.

"The Federal Reserve System is in the wrong hands. No Constitutional republic can function when the government's money powers are in the hands of the financial oligarchy such as New York financiers."

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Im just hoping the whole debt monetization scheme of the federal reserve has finally sunk into Parados by now and that he understands how the government has to pay for these dollar bills with principal and interest.

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Simple question for you Richard..

Does the federal reserve note have value or not?

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parados wrote:

Simple question for you Richard..

Does the federal reserve note have value or not?

The federal reserve note has value as long as people think it does.

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"The federal reserve note has value as long as people think it does."

What a perfect answer. Now, what if Monopoly took over the FED and issued Monopoly money; would you say the same? I would guess, you probably would.

However, if the Nation owned itwhat would your answer be?

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The 16th Amendment does not
authorize Congress, nor the IRS,
to charge discriminatory rates of taxation.

The amendment cud not have passed, if it said THAT.
The 16th Amendment was not enacted to transfer
the wealth of the middle class, nor of the rich, to the poor.
David

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cicerone imposter wrote:

parados wrote:
Simple question for you Richard..

Does the federal reserve note have value or not?

The federal reserve note has value as long as people think it does.

Thats exactly right.. I dont understand people like Parados. They can be very articulate and analytical, but when presented with opportunity to increase their learning on a topic would rather butt heads and argue than admit they were wrong.

When shown how the federal reserve works with the monetization of debt and how the government has to pay for the currency he'd rather ignore it instead of learning.

Answering questions with questions, thats what politicians do.. That why everybody knows theyre always full of ****.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

parados wrote:
Simple question for you Richard..

Does the federal reserve note have value or not?

The federal reserve note has value as long as people think it does.

What is the difference in value between a US note and a Federal Reserve note?

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parados, Good q. It's probably only a difference in age with the new notes showing "Federal." Greenbacks are still legal tender. Rarity may make any note more valuable over the face value.

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Richard Saunders wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
parados wrote:
Simple question for you Richard..

Does the federal reserve note have value or not?

The federal reserve note has value as long as people think it does.

Thats exactly right.. I dont understand people like Parados. They can be very articulate and analytical, but when presented with opportunity to increase their learning on a topic would rather butt heads and argue than admit they were wrong.

When shown how the federal reserve works with the monetization of debt and how the government has to pay for the currency he'd rather ignore it instead of learning.

Answering questions with questions, thats what politicians do.. That why everybody knows theyre always full of ****.

http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2884110#2884110

Sometimes **** just doesn't recognize that it smells.

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parados wrote:

Richard Saunders wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
parados wrote:
Simple question for you Richard..

Does the federal reserve note have value or not?

The federal reserve note has value as long as people think it does.

Thats exactly right.. I dont understand people like Parados. They can be very articulate and analytical, but when presented with opportunity to increase their learning on a topic would rather butt heads and argue than admit they were wrong.

When shown how the federal reserve works with the monetization of debt and how the government has to pay for the currency he'd rather ignore it instead of learning.

Answering questions with questions, thats what politicians do.. That why everybody knows theyre always full of ****.

http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2884110#2884110

Sometimes **** just doesn't recognize that it smells.

So do you finally understand the process of how our government buys money from the federal reserve?

Do you also now understand the difference between this and when the federal reserve creates money for its own purposes?

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Richard Saunders wrote:

Answering questions with questions, thats what politicians do.. That why everybody knows theyre always full of ****.

Do you hold your nose when you ask questions in response to questions?

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parados wrote:

Richard Saunders wrote:
Answering questions with questions, thats what politicians do.. That why everybody knows theyre always full of ****.

Do you hold your nose when you ask questions in response to questions?

Its a simple question Pardos. Either you understand it or you dont?

Which one is it?

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If the federal government prints money without borrowing it creates inflation.

By the way Richard, where are the Federal Reserve's printing presses located? I bet you don't know the answer. But then you never answered my last question. Instead you just asked questions of your own. What did you say about people that ask questions in response to a question? Oh, that's right. You really don't smell your own stink.

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parados wrote:

If the federal government prints money without borrowing it creates inflation.

By the way Richard, where are the Federal Reserve's printing presses located? I bet you don't know the answer. But then you never answered my last question. Instead you just asked questions of your own. What did you say about people that ask questions in response to a question? Oh, that's right. You really don't smell your own stink.

Wow, you're a real sore loser when you dont win a conversation eh?

If you cant follow this stuff how do you ever expect people to take you seriously on the whole income tax drama? Geez man.

Now on to your latest question: The federal reserve's printing presses?

Im assuming you mean the ones that print money. Well I would think they would be the presses located at the BEP. Since they're the ones who actually do the printing of the bills.

Is there something to the question I missed?

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By BEP you mean the Bureau of Engraving and Printing.

http://www.bep.treas.gov/

which is part of the US treasury.

What was your and Try's argument again about who can print money? Could you remind us all.

I didn't realize pointing out your own quote vs your own actions would make me a sore loser. I only thought it made you hypocritical.

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parados wrote:

By BEP you mean the Bureau of Engraving and Printing.

http://www.bep.treas.gov/

which is part of the US treasury.

What was your and Try's argument again about who can print money? Could you remind us all.

I didn't realize pointing out your own quote vs your own actions would make me a sore loser. I only thought it made you hypocritical.

Man, you still dont understand.. This is your problem dude.. Shake the rocks out of your head -really, and try to listen this time. Youll learn something.

The BEP does the actual printing of the bills and are paid 4 cents a piece by the federal reserve. Understand that part?

Okay.. Now that the federal reserve has paid the BEP for their printing services they take possession of these printed notes. OK so far?

Now, before these printed notes can be used by the government for money, the government must pay the federal reserve for them with govt bonds. They have to purchase the federal reserve notes at face value. So although a $100 bill only cost the federal reserve 4 cents to acquire they are now selling that piece of paper with my uncle's picture on it for $100 worth of T-Bonds. Comprende on this?

Most of the time there isnt even any paper involved. Most of the time the federal reserve simply credits the treasury's bank account in exchange for T-Bonds...

Now this is the process for when the government receives newly created money from the federal reserve. But the federal reserve can also create money for its own purposes without going to the federal government.

Lets say the federal reserve wanted to buy $1 Million in office furniture from Staples. They can simply write out a check to Staples for $1 Million. Their check is like every other check except it is drawn on the Federal Reserve. It cannot bounce because it is where the money is created from. Staples gets their money and the fed has gotten its furniture. And the 'money' to pay for it was simply created out of thin air.

I hope you have listened and finally understand. So far I am amazed at your inability to look at facts and understand them.. Truly astounding man really.

I dont know what else to say. This is how the system works. You can pick up any economics book and read about monetizing the debt and you can educate yourself on this topic.

I have tried to explain this to you multiple times. At this point Im beginning to think your refusal to understand is based on stubborness. It seems you would rather plead ignorance than to simply admit your were ill-informed on the topic.

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Richard Saunders wrote:

parados wrote:
By BEP you mean the Bureau of Engraving and Printing.

http://www.bep.treas.gov/

which is part of the US treasury.

What was your and Try's argument again about who can print money? Could you remind us all.

I didn't realize pointing out your own quote vs your own actions would make me a sore loser. I only thought it made you hypocritical.

Man, you still dont understand.. This is your problem dude.. Shake the rocks out of your head -really, and try to listen this time. Youll learn something.

The BEP does the actual printing of the bills and are paid 4 cents a piece by the federal reserve. Understand that part?

Yes, I do understand that part except the 4 cent part since the claim was that the Fed made 97 cents on each dollar. The math seems a little off. But we will ignore your penny for the billions you are off later.

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Okay.. Now that the federal reserve has paid the BEP for their printing services they take possession of these printed notes. OK so far?

Now, before these printed notes can be used by the government for money, the government must pay the federal reserve for them with govt bonds. They have to purchase the federal reserve notes at face value. So although a $100 bill only cost the federal reserve 4 cents to acquire they are now selling that piece of paper with my uncle's picture on it for $100 worth of T-Bonds. Comprende on this?

Yes. I do.. but the federal notes have a value of $100 and the bond has the same value. So the Fed doesn't make 97 cents. The government can buy the bond back with the same $100 in federal reserve notes plus any owed interest. So the FED didn't make 97 cents. The Fed only exchanged 2 items of equal value with interest being charged to hold the bond. If the Federal government printed enough US notes to take all the Fed notes out of circulation the FED would have to take back the Fed notes and would only make interest on the T-bonds that would be purchased back. But if the government DID that it would make the US dollar almost worthless and drive inflation through the roof.

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Most of the time there isnt even any paper involved. Most of the time the federal reserve simply credits the treasury's bank account in exchange for T-Bonds...

Yes? and? Banks do that all the time. The FED is no different from any bank. Wire transfers rarely involve actual paper money. Accounts are just credited. I believe each bank has an account at the FED and that is how almost all money is moved between banks.

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Now this is the process for when the government receives newly created money from the federal reserve. But the federal reserve can also create money for its own purposes without going to the federal government.

Lets say the federal reserve wanted to buy $1 Million in office furniture from Staples. They can simply write out a check to Staples for $1 Million. Their check is like every other check except it is drawn on the Federal Reserve. It cannot bounce because it is where the money is created from. Staples gets their money and the fed has gotten its furniture. And the 'money' to pay for it was simply created out of thin air.

That is where you step over the line. The FED can't create money to write a check out of thin air. I suggest you look at this simple explanation. http://www.ingrimayne.com/econ/Banking/Commodity2.html
and this one http://www.prosperityuk.com/prosperity/articles/howbcm.html
All banks "create money" when they give out loans. The Fed is a bank. It creates money when it loans it to banks. It doesn't create money by writing checks to Staples since the check to Staples will be cashed and drawn out of an actual FED account. The Fed creates money when a member bank loans Staples $1 million and needs a loan from the Fed to keep its cash reserves high enough to meet the Federal requirements. The Fed credits that bank's account with a loan that charges interest at the bank fund rate and then sends an armored car with the hard cash. Did you forget? The Fed has all those US T-bonds on deposit. A bank can easily create $100 for every $1 on deposit by giving out loans. Staples then pays $1million to a construction company that deposits money in a different bank that moves excess money to the Fed. But in the process the FED never saw that $1 million. They didnt' have to put $1 million in the banks account since the requirements for cash on hand are far less than 1 to 1.

Your claim that the Fed can write checks for as much as it wants and then not bounce them is silly. It shows a complete lack of understanding of the banking system. The bank has accounts. It can't write it's own checks without money in an account without violating the very system of "creating money". It would be fraud and would quickly leave the bank with no deposits left to do anything. Remember that banks have to have a certain amount of hard cash on hand. If the Fed was creating that much money by writing checks. Those checks would be deposited in other banks which would be making loans based on the deposits which would drive up their requirements for "hard cash" on hand. Pretty soon the Fed would require more hard cash than has been printed. The entire system would collapse. You are speculating the the Fed is engaged in this fraud based on your failure to understand "creating money".

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I hope you have listened and finally understand. So far I am amazed at your inability to look at facts and understand them.. Truly astounding man really.

Facts I have no problem with. Your claims that are outside the facts are what I have problems with. The FED is not the only cause of inflation.

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I dont know what else to say. This is how the system works. You can pick up any economics book and read about monetizing the debt and you can educate yourself on this topic.

You think you understand it but then you make leaps that are not part or parcel of any economics book or rational theory.

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I have tried to explain this to you multiple times. At this point Im beginning to think your refusal to understand is based on stubborness. It seems you would rather plead ignorance than to simply admit your were ill-informed on the topic.

You have tried to explain that the Government can print as much money as it wants and it won't cost anything. That is bunk. You think the government can print money without borrowing and there will be no inflationary pressures. Money is money whether there is a central bank or not. Printing money without borrowing causes inflation because increasing the money supply devalues the monetary unit unless that monetary unit is supported by borrowing.

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Is U.S. income tax invalid?

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