kind of says it all, doesn't it ? the founding fathers intended for the government, and by extension, the american nation to be of a secular nature. free to worship, or not, as you please with no government involvement whatsoever.
George Washington "And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles.." (1)
Noah Webster "No truth is more evident to any mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people." (2)
Benjamin Rush "The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments... Without religion, I believe that learning does much mischief to the morals and principles of mankind." (3)
John Adams " it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand." (4)
John Adams We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion..." (6)
Thomas Jefferson "And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." (7)
Patrick Henry "The great pillars of all government and social life [are] virtue, morality and religion If we loose these we are conquered indeed." (8)
James Madison "We have staked the whole future of American civilization not on the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future ...upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God. " (9)
John Adams "Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." (10)
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
kind of says it all, doesn't it ? the founding fathers intended for the government, and by extension, the american nation to be of a secular nature. free to worship, or not, as you please with no government involvement whatsoever.
This statement is audaciously ignorant as it is incorrect on its face.
Avail yourself to some selected quotes of our Forefathers. While these all have been quotes pulled out of context, the multitude is sufficient to send you back to school.
Quote:George Washington "And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles.." (1)
I doubt that we will observe the eloquence of Blatham or Dyslexia in your post.
Furthermore, the entire argument you advance is crap that Keith Ellison should be free to be pictured with left hand over Koran instead of a bible based on your obvious misconception you posess that the United States is a completely Godless and secular nation.
1)Quote:"The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine." -
-- George Washington
2) and that is the point. period.
if you had bothered to actually pay attention as you "perused" this thread, you would have of course realized that your scholarly instruction to us great unwashed types had already been posted a week ago by the evil setanta.
but perhaps you were too busy stroking your ego, a practice well known to cause blindness.
eloquent enough for ya, doc ?
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
kind of says it all, doesn't it ? the founding fathers intended for the government, and by extension, the american nation to be of a secular nature. free to worship, or not, as you please with no government involvement whatsoever.
This statement is audaciously ignorant as it is incorrect on its face.
Avail yourself to some selected quotes of our Forefathers. While these all have been quotes pulled out of context, the multitude is sufficient to send you back to school.
Quote:George Washington "And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles.." (1)
I doubt that we will observe the eloquence of Blatham or Dyslexia in your post.
Furthermore, the entire argument you advance is crap that Keith Ellison should be free to be pictured with left hand over Koran instead of a bible based on your obvious misconception you posess that the United States is a completely Godless and secular nation.
I realize I may be taking a great chance with this claim, but I'd have to say that I'm definitely detecting a note of contempt for the Great Godsby, old bean.
James Madison "We have staked the whole future of American civilization not on the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future ...upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God. " (9)
Monte Cargo wrote:DontTreadOnMe wrote:
kind of says it all, doesn't it ? the founding fathers intended for the government, and by extension, the american nation to be of a secular nature. free to worship, or not, as you please with no government involvement whatsoever.
This statement is audaciously ignorant as it is incorrect on its face.
Avail yourself to some selected quotes of our Forefathers. While these all have been quotes pulled out of context, the multitude is sufficient to send you back to school.
Quote:George Washington "And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles.." (1)
I doubt that we will observe the eloquence of Blatham or Dyslexia in your post.
Furthermore, the entire argument you advance is crap that Keith Ellison should be free to be pictured with left hand over Koran instead of a bible based on your obvious misconception you posess that the United States is a completely Godless and secular nation.
1) "The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine." -
-- George Washington
2) and that is the point. period.
if you had bothered to actually pay attention as you "perused" this thread, you would have of course realized that your scholarly instruction to us great unwashed types had already been posted a week ago by the evil setanta.
but perhaps you were too busy stroking your ego, a practice well known to cause blindness.
eloquent enough for ya, doc ?
Noah Webster is a "founding father" ? ! ? ! ?
Didn't participate in the Revolution, held no political office, did not participate in the Constitutional convention--hmmm, guess i must have had much too much a restricted view of what constitutes a "founding father."
Of course, if one simply looks at him as a "forefather," then his nonsense has no more authority on the subject of what was intended for the nature of our government than any other yop out there on his soapbox two centuries ago.
Monte Cargo wrote:James Madison "We have staked the whole future of American civilization not on the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future ...upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God. " (9)
If you are going to post quotes you should at least post accurate ones. That one attributed to Madison is a total fabrication made popular by David Barton.
For those unfamiliar with David Barton, his book Americas Godly Heritage which is widely quoted by the religious right, is loaded with inaccuracies and misinformation. For a short critique of his book see this link.
Critique of David Barton's "America's Godly Heritage" by the Baptist Joint Committee on Public Affairs.
I'm not at all sure that anyone has ever suggested that the US of A is or was an atheistic nation. Noah Webster founding father? that's a stretch.
As recently as 1952 Justice William O. Douglas wrote:
"We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being."
Even liberal Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren, wrote in 1954:
"I believe no one can read the history of our country without realizing that the Good Book and the spirit of the Savior have from the beginning been our guiding geniuses ... Whether we look to the first Charter of Virginia ... or to the Charter of New England ... or to the Charter of Massachusetts Bay ... or to the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut ... the same objective is present ... a Christian land governed by Christian principles. I believe the entire Bill of Rights came into being because of the knowledge our forefathers had of the Bible and their belief in it: freedom of belief, of expression, of assembly, of petition, the dignity of the individual, the sanctity of the home, equal justice under law, and the reservation of powers to the people ... I like to believe we are living today in the spirit of the Christian religion. I like also to believe that as long as we do so, no great harm can come to our country."
George Washington wrote a prayer addressed to "O most glorious God, in Jesus Christ" and ended it like this:
"... Let me live according to those holy rules which Thou hast this day prescribed in Thy holy word ... Direct me to the true object, Jesus Christ the way, the truth and the life. Bless, O Lord, all the people of this land."
Washington also said:
"Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."
John Adams wrote:
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with passions unbridled by morality and religion."
"Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone, which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand."
Thomas Jefferson, the man "blamed" for the wall of separation between church and state said:
"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God?"
"No power over the freedom of religion [is] delegated to the United States by the Constitution."
James Madison:
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not on the power of government...[but] upon the capacity of each and every one of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
John Quincy Adams:
"The greatest glory of the American Revolution was this: It connected in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."
"No book in the world deserves to be so unceasingly studied, and so profoundly meditated upon as the Bible."
"Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the Foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?"
Abraham Lincoln:
"Unless the great God who assisted [President Washington], shall be with me and aid me, I must fail. But if the same omniscient mind, and Almighty arm, that directed and protected him, shall guide and support me, I shall not fail ... Let us pray that the God of our fathers may not forsake us now."
Grover Cleveland:
"All must admit that the reception of the teachings of Christ results in the purest patriotism, in the most scrupulous fidelity to public trust, and in the best type of citizenship."
Teddy Roosevelt:
"In this actual world, a churchless community, a community where men have abandoned and scoffed at, or ignored their religious needs, is a community on the rapid down-grade."
Woodrow Wilson:
"America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of the Holy Scripture."
Calvin Coolidge, speaking of the founding fathers:
"They were intent upon establishing a Christian commonwealth in accordance with the principle of self-government. They were an inspired body of men. It has been said that God sifted the nations that He might send choice grain into the wilderness ... Who can fail to see it in the hand of Destiny? Who can doubt that it has been guided by a Divine Providence?"
John F. Kennedy:
"The rights of man come not from the generosity of the state but from the hand of God."
Gerald Ford, quoted a speech made by Dwight Eisenhower in 1955:
"Without God there could be no American form of government, nor an American way of life. Recognition of the Supreme Being is the first--the most basic--expression of Americanism. Thus, the founding fathers of America saw it, and thus with God's help, it will continue to be."
It is actually quite a simple matter to go online and do some "quote mining" for what the founders thought about religion--and you can get quotes which seem to suggest that the founders were deeply religious men who intended a Christian state, and quotes which suggest that they intended a secular state, with a separation of church and state. To counter the drivel posted above, here are some links which suggest the founders intended a secular state:
Separation of Church and State?--a page at About-dot-com.
"The Founding Fathers on Religion"--a page at the Ayn Rand Institute. Anyone familiar with Miss Rand and her views will know that this is evidence that there are conservatives who do not believe that the United States was founded as a Christian nation.
This page at Early America-dot-com refers to the treaty with the Barbary city-state of Tripoli in which the assertion is made that the United States is not a Christian nation--as well as other quotes from founders.
Quote mining of this type can be very disingenuous. For example, the treaty with Tripoli had an important point to make--if the Barbary states saw war with the United States as holy war against the infidel, then they were free to slaughter prisoners without transgressing against their religious beliefs, and were free to sell survivors into slavery. By denying that the United States were a Christian nation, the government was taking a positive step to protect American citizens. Knowing the context of any statement is very important.
Two things cannot be denied, however. No matter how many times one quotes Jefferson, one is going to have to account for his "wall of separation" statement in the letter to the Danbury Baptists. No matter what one says about a "Christian nation," one runs smack up against the first clause of the first amendment--period.
DontTreadOnMe wrote:Monte Cargo wrote:DontTreadOnMe wrote:
kind of says it all, doesn't it ? the founding fathers intended for the government, and by extension, the american nation to be of a secular nature. free to worship, or not, as you please with no government involvement whatsoever.
This statement is audaciously ignorant as it is incorrect on its face.
Avail yourself to some selected quotes of our Forefathers. While these all have been quotes pulled out of context, the multitude is sufficient to send you back to school.
Quote:George Washington "And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles.." (1)
I doubt that we will observe the eloquence of Blatham or Dyslexia in your post.
Furthermore, the entire argument you advance is crap that Keith Ellison should be free to be pictured with left hand over Koran instead of a bible based on your obvious misconception you posess that the United States is a completely Godless and secular nation.
1) "The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine." -
-- George Washington
2) and that is the point. period.
if you had bothered to actually pay attention as you "perused" this thread, you would have of course realized that your scholarly instruction to us great unwashed types had already been posted a week ago by the evil setanta.
but perhaps you were too busy stroking your ego, a practice well known to cause blindness.
eloquent enough for ya, doc ?
You got the point across.
"1) "The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine." -
-- George Washington"
...but that's not quite the same as "The United States was founded as a secular nation". Washington's entire point was about this nation's tolerance to grant its citizens freedom of religion. The Church of England was a form of Christianity by rule, something that the American revolutionaries rebelled against. This is one of the biggest changes from the British form of government that this country has.
We celebrate Christmas as a national holiday in this country, which is one indication that this country recognizes this day of religious celebration.
Washington himself was a deeply religious man who carried a prayer journal.
Then why did you bother to make this post?
"a description of the U.S.A. as an atheistic nation is nothing more than a wet dream for the A.C.L.U."
I realize that it is many people's wishful thinking that the U.S. is, will become, or was always a secular nation, but nothing could possible be further from the truth.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.
On the contrary, quite a few on this thread who have been pounding away at the notion of "swearing on the bible", or "swearing on the Koran" should feel completely ashamed. They're total goofs as I pointed out in one of my recent posts here somewhere.
None of them had a clue of how it works when Congressmen/women take their oath.
