Who Lost Iraq?

spendius wrote:

Come on Bernie-

Surely you can see the route stuff like that might travel on from a nuclear research facility or a cyclotron. It's dead easy to transport as a salt (nitrate seems most likely) and minute doses cause long term illnesses of a fatal nature.

One might not even need to use it. One might just phone in to say one had.

Allow your imagination a little scope.

And ebola, anthrax, marburg, suitcase nukes, nerve agents, etc etc. The only way you are going to remain safe, spendi, is to kill off all other humans but yourself plus life down through viruses and then begin dismantling the physical universe. I'll let your imagination set to the full task.

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bf, from stats I have seen on CNN and elsewhere, about half the public now believes that Bush lied us into the war. I wager that a much higher percentage of those in the media also believe this.

Do you believe that Bush had honorable intentions in taking us into the war?

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spendius wrote:

The point I was making, and made clearly enough in the first post mentioning this case, was that Mr Bush would have been aware of things like that long before they became known to us.

That he was on planet Vigilance whilst we were all on planet Complacent Ego Preen from the beginning.

Your faith in an ex-cocaine sniffing spoiled brat with an authoritarian personality and no curiosity about the world or its history isn't terribly compelling.

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Advocate, obviously I'm one of the 6 out of 10 Americans who believe Bushie deliberately lied us into war. Our intentions are nowhere near honorable and Bushie himself recently admitted we're in Iraq to protect America's oil interests. Sure I think many in the mainstream media know the truth and most Dems too. That dont mean their going to admit it. After all many of those helped Bushie lie us into war.

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Classified US government report finds Iraq insurgency self-sustained financially

Raw Story
Published: Saturday November 25, 2006

A classified U.S. government report finds that the Iraq insurgency has enough funds to sustain itself, according to a front page article in Sunday's edition of The New York Times.

"The insurgency in Iraq is now self-sustaining financially, raising tens of millions of dollars a year from oil smuggling, kidnapping, counterfeiting, corrupt charities and other crimes that the Iraqi government and its American patrons have been largely unable to prevent, a classified United States government report has concluded ," John F. Burns reports for the Times.

"The report, obtained by The New York Times, estimates that armed groups responsible for many of the insurgent and terrorist attacks across Iraq are raising between $70 million and $200 million a year from illegal activities," the article continues.

According to the Times, the classified reports estimates "that between $25 million and $100 million of the total comes from oil smuggling and other criminal activity involving the state-owned oil industry that is aided by 'corrupt and complicit' Iraqi government officials."

Excerpts from article:

###

As much as $36 million a year comes from ransoms paid to save thousands of kidnapping victims in Iraq, the report said. It estimates that unnamed foreign governments ?- previously identified by senior American officials in Iraq as including France and Italy ?- paid Iraqi kidnappers an estimated $30 million in ransom last year.

A copy of the report was made available to The Times by American officials in Iraq, who said they acted in the belief that the findings could improve American understanding of the challenges facing the United States in Iraq.

The report offers little hope that much can be done, at least anytime soon, to choke off insurgent revenues. For one thing, it acknowledges how little the American authorities in Iraq know ?- three and a half years after the invasion that toppled Mr. Hussein ?- about key aspects of insurgent operations. For another, it paints an almost despairing picture of the Iraqi government's ability, or willingness, to take measures the report says will be necessary to tamp down the insurgent financing.

###

NEW YORK TIMES SUBSCRIBERS CAN READ FULL ARTICLE AT THIS LINK
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Iraq_self_sustain_1125.htm

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Advocate wrote:

bf, from stats I have seen on CNN and elsewhere, about half the public now believes that Bush lied us into the war. I wager that a much higher percentage of those in the media also believe this.

Do you believe that Bush had honorable intentions in taking us into the war?

What I find unacceptable, and quite creepy, is the mindset of those people who had decided to attack Iraq and set about fabricating evidence, and exaggerating threats, and lying to those who supported them, in order to make the invasion look legitimate.

A long way from being honourable, it was a crime.

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Bernie-

Why would I have faith in an individual? Mr Bush ceased to be an individual when he was elected. He represents much more than himself. He has to carry people with him and their departments. You are questioning the whole American political system which is fair enough. One assumes Mr Bush is being briefed.

It has nothing to do with me feeling safe. It is about the responsibilities of high office and what do we know concerning those.

The world isn't simple anymore much as we both might prefer it to be.

What are you recommending?

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blueflame1 wrote:

Advocate, obviously I'm one of the 6 out of 10 Americans who believe Bushie deliberately lied us into war. Our intentions are nowhere near honorable and Bushie himself recently admitted we're in Iraq to protect America's oil interests. Sure I think many in the mainstream media know the truth and most Dems too. That dont mean their going to admit it. After all many of those helped Bushie lie us into war.

I can't prove it, but it seems that most Dems, and a good percentage of the media, willingly admit that our intentions were dishonorable. It would make them look silly not to so admit.

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Advocate, so they think Bushie's intentions were dishonorable yet they dont call for his prosecution for war crimes or even impeachment? Hundreds of thousands have died with escalation in the offing. How honorable are they who are willing to allow a mass murderer get away with mass murder? How much of a pension will good American citizens be paying this mass murderer when he walks away a free man?

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spendius wrote:

Bernie-

Why would I have faith in an individual? Mr Bush ceased to be an individual when he was elected. He represents much more than himself. He has to carry people with him and their departments. You are questioning the whole American political system which is fair enough. One assumes Mr Bush is being briefed.

It has nothing to do with me feeling safe. It is about the responsibilities of high office and what do we know concerning those.

The world isn't simple anymore much as we both might prefer it to be.

What are you recommending?

Please. As if a position of responsibility will magically vest all of its inhabitants with prudence, intelligence, knowledge and responsibility, and in equal portions individual to individual.

Recommending, re what?

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McTag wrote:

Advocate wrote:
bf, from stats I have seen on CNN and elsewhere, about half the public now believes that Bush lied us into the war. I wager that a much higher percentage of those in the media also believe this.

Do you believe that Bush had honorable intentions in taking us into the war?

What I find unacceptable, and quite creepy, is the mindset of those people who had decided to attack Iraq and set about fabricating evidence, and exaggerating threats, and lying to those who supported them, in order to make the invasion look legitimate.

A long way from being honourable, it was a crime.

This is where the discussion leaves the realm of sensibility in debate and leaps chasms to that area known as the left lunatic fringe.

You know that McTag, so I am not telling you anything new.

When you come back down to earth, let us continue the discussion.

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Monte Cargo wrote:

McTag wrote:
Advocate wrote:
bf, from stats I have seen on CNN and elsewhere, about half the public now believes that Bush lied us into the war. I wager that a much higher percentage of those in the media also believe this.

Do you believe that Bush had honorable intentions in taking us into the war?

What I find unacceptable, and quite creepy, is the mindset of those people who had decided to attack Iraq and set about fabricating evidence, and exaggerating threats, and lying to those who supported them, in order to make the invasion look legitimate.

A long way from being honourable, it was a crime.

This is where the discussion leaves the realm of sensibility in debate and leaps chasms to that area known as the left lunatic fringe.

You know that McTag, so I am not telling you anything new.

When you come back down to earth, let us continue the discussion.

Attacking the messenger for the message is not new, and is not convincing nor credible.

It's a shame that because of GWB's position, he will never be held accountable on the world's stage. I understand that for many Americans associated with him, this situation is more than embarassing. But facts are facts, and they don't go away.

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Bernie wrote-

Quote:

As if a position of responsibility will magically vest all of its inhabitants with prudence, intelligence, knowledge and responsibility, and in equal portions individual to individual

Not at all. I never even intimated any such thing. I assume that the American electorate felt those qualities might be, in Mr Bush, the best they could find in all the circumstances.

Other men offered themselves and were rejected.

He would, for sure, get a vast influx of new knowledge. Responsibility goes without saying and the other two are a matter of debate.

Recommending what to do.

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Quote:

Recommending what to do.

As regards what element of what posited problem?

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McTag wrote:

Monte Cargo wrote:
McTag wrote:
Advocate wrote:
bf, from stats I have seen on CNN and elsewhere, about half the public now believes that Bush lied us into the war. I wager that a much higher percentage of those in the media also believe this.

Do you believe that Bush had honorable intentions in taking us into the war?

What I find unacceptable, and quite creepy, is the mindset of those people who had decided to attack Iraq and set about fabricating evidence, and exaggerating threats, and lying to those who supported them, in order to make the invasion look legitimate.

A long way from being honourable, it was a crime.

This is where the discussion leaves the realm of sensibility in debate and leaps chasms to that area known as the left lunatic fringe.

You know that McTag, so I am not telling you anything new.

When you come back down to earth, let us continue the discussion.

Attacking the messenger for the message is not new, and is not convincing nor credible.

It's a shame that because of GWB's position, he will never be held accountable on the world's stage. I understand that for many Americans associated with him, this situation is more than embarassing. But facts are facts, and they don't go away.

So what you are saying, Bernie is that the dumbest president ever elected, somehow managed to perpetrate a mass fraud on all of Congress and the entire American population.

You've chosen to ignore previous posts in this very thread that indicate the prevailing and accepted intelligence at the time just preceding our invasion. You have also ignored the statements made by democratic leaders. This is why your "impeachment for war crimes" rings as fantastic.

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I've become an oat-eating scotsman. My father, english, would likely not approve. On the other hand, my mother, a horny Cossack mennonite, had a thing for kilts. So all in all, it seems to even out.

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Bernie wrote-

Quote:

As regards what element of what posited problem

Well- looking back with hindsight and manipulating, or having manipulated for you, what it tells you is really only party political point scoring.

What changes in policy are you advocating for tomorrow starting from here not from some past time which is set in stone.

Freud thought we unconsciously looked back to our infancy. By which I presume he meant that we remained infants all our lives fundamentally. Conquering the urge to look back might well define maturity.

Imagine you are where the buck stops with a thousand telephones and all of them ringing. Your pawn to K3 say.

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spendie

Please force yourself to specifics. Or perhaps hire a stern editor.

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http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19720

Quote:

Today, if we went into Iraq, like the president would like us to do, you know where you begin. You never know where you are going to end.
?-George F. Kennan,September 26, 2002[1]

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Monte Cargo wrote:

So what you are saying, is that the dumbest president ever elected,

No, he really is too dumb for that. It was his puppeteers and speechwriters

Quote:

somehow managed to perpetrate a mass fraud on all of Congress and the entire American population.

Goebbels tactics still work. It's strange I know, and was incomprehensible to me at the time, but when you understand this you will be well on the way to understanding the rest. "Entire" is a stretch, by the way, even for a nation which has just been attacked

Quote:

You've chosen to ignore previous posts in this very thread that indicate the prevailing and accepted intelligence at the time just preceding our invasion.

The intelligence fed to you was garbage, and it was fabricated by the culprits I accuse. It was "accepted" by fewer people than you think. That fact was strongly suspected by many before the invasion (thanks for not calling it a "war", by the way) and was later confirmed.

Quote:

You have also ignored the statements made by democratic leaders. This is why your "impeachment for war crimes" rings as fantastic.

Democratic leaders, mindful of their votes, were disinclined to speak out. Some no doubt thought some foreigners should be killed, to make people feel better after 9-11. Most must now bitterly regret that lapse in judgement and lack of courage. The have served their country very badly.

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