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Who Lost Iraq?

 
 
LoneStarMadam
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 11:32 am
Advocate wrote:
Leno noted last night that Bush visited Vietnam. Leno said: shouldn't he have made the trip in 1968?

He was busy flying for TANG. A pity that he wasn't on his way to Oxford.
I do like Leno, he is an equal opportunity basher.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 11:39 am
LoneStarMadam wrote:
blatham wrote:
LoneStarMadam wrote:
Back to the original question...."Who lost Iraq?"
I still want to know why the poster says that we have lost Iraq. We're still there, no draw down date has even been given.
BTW-The election is over & I would hope that now, out of common decency, if for no other reason, the Dems would stop using our military, ESPECIALLY OUR DEAD TROOPS, for political fodder.


If you find your posts increasingly unmet by response it's likely because you are disappearing under their "ignore" function. And if you are being ignored, it will certainly have much to do with your lack of care in writing and in reading.

The "poster" didn't say Iraq was lost. He pasted an article by Andrew Bacevich which referenced a number of neoconservatives (quoted or writing in Vanity Fair) who describe the matter using that word. Did you read the pasted Bacevich piece? Did you attempt to locate the neoconservative comments referenced? Do you understand the term "neoconservative"? Are you in the least familiar with who they are? With their presence/influence in this administration?


What a pity that you don't use YOUR ignore feature. You have just convinced me that I should & will.


Request to the other folks on this thread...

So long as our new friend here continues to employ her "watch me squat and pee" style of contribution, I'll request that you don't bother responding.

If at some point she begins to post careful and reasoned arguments or materials, then by all means take her up on such.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 11:44 am
blatham, Somebody already identified "her" as Massagatto." Can't be far off.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 11:51 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
blatham, Somebody already identified "her" as Massagatto." Can't be far off.


ci
Who knows? In any case, let's ignore until there's some significant change in behavior. Let's also refrain from further third party discussion of her.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 11:54 am
Here's something from Fox. It will be interesting to watch how they cover this conflict...
Quote:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,229159,00.html
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LoneStarMadam
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 11:59 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
blatham, Somebody already identified "her" as Massagatto." Can't be far off.

Somebody doesn't know what they're talking about.
I answer posts in kind, make a reasoned argument, or debate the topic & I will answer to that, attack me, & I will also answer to that.
Lone Star madam of the Whorehouse or is Massagotto are not intelligent nor helpful arguments.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 12:01 pm
from a nov 3 CNN piece. Everyone's favorite black cloud of warmongering goodness, Richard Perle speaks
Quote:
The critiques in Vanity Fair come as growing numbers of Republicans have criticized Bush's policies on Iraq. The war, unpopular with many Americans, has become a top-tier issue in next week's congressional elections.

Perle said "you have to hold the president responsible" because he didn't recognize "disloyalty" by some in the administration. He said the White House's National Security Council, then run by now-Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, did not serve Bush properly.
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/03/iraq.critics.ap/
0 Replies
 
LoneStarMadam
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 12:03 pm
"Next weeks congressional elections"
Now that the elections are two weeks old, isn't this a moot point? I mean, the Dems took congress, what else is to prove?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 12:23 pm
Helen Thomas...
Quote:
The midterm elections sounded the requiem for the group of neoconservatives who helped design the disastrous U.S. invasion of Iraq.
It's over for them and their big dreams of pre-emptive wars and conquest of the Middle East. If anything, this group has left America weakened by the tragic military misadventure in Iraq.


They convinced President Bush it would be a "cakewalk" to invade and occupy Iraq, but it has turned out otherwise. Those power-driven ideologues have learned that the price for their dream was high -- too high.

So much for their calamitous "Project for A New American Century," which laid out the agenda to transform several Arab nations to their liking. It also meant sending Americans to kill and die for reasons yet to be explained by the President.

The neocons now blame a dysfunctional Bush administration, not their own ignorance of the history of the Arab world. They have belatedly learned that Iraqis -- like any other people -- will fight any foreign invader and occupier.
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?newsdate=11/18/2006&navigation=nextprior&category=OPINION&storyID=536490
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 12:24 pm
Various neoconservatives quoted in VF reply...
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MzgxYzUzYmRlNjhmNzMyNjI2MDM4YmRjNTFhODA4MGQ=
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 12:33 pm
I am glad to see that Helen Thomas still has it.

Early on, she said that W was the worst president in memory.
0 Replies
 
LoneStarMadam
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 12:35 pm
"Never give up, never give in, & when the upper hand is ours, may we have the ability to handle the win with DIGNITY that we absorbed the loss"
Doug WIlliams
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 12:37 pm
I shot the sheriff, but I did not shoot the deputy.
I shot the sheriff, but I did not shoot the deputy.

All around in my home town
Theyre trying to track me down.
They say they want to bring me in guilty
For the killing of a deputy,
For the life of a deputy.
But I say:

I shot the sheriff, but I swear it was in self-defense.
I shot the sheriff, and they say it is a capital offense.

Sheriff john brown always hated me;
For what I dont know.
Every time that I plant a seed
He said, kill it before it grows.
He said, kill it before it grows.
I say:

I shot the sheriff, but I swear it was in self-defense.
I shot the sheriff, but I swear it was in self-defense.

Freedom came my way one day
And I started out of town.
All of a sudden I see sheriff john brown
Aiming to shoot me down.
So I shot, I shot him down.
I say:

I shot the sheriff, but I did not shoot the deputy.
I shot the sheriff, but I did not shoot the deputy.

Reflexes got the better of me
And what is to be must be.
Every day the bucket goes to the well,
But one day the bottom will drop out,
Yes, one day the bottom will drop out.
But I say:

I shot the sheriff, but I did not shoot the deputy, oh no.
I shot the sheriff, but I did not shoot the deputy, oh no.
0 Replies
 
LoneStarMadam
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 12:43 pm
lol
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 12:45 pm
Relevant commentary from The American Conservative...
Quote:
Ideology Has Consequences

Bush rejects the politics of prudence.

by Jeffrey Hart

Many Republicans must feel like that legendary man at the bar on the Titanic. Watching the iceberg slide by outside a porthole, he remarked, "I asked for ice. But this is too much." Republicans voted for a Republican and got George W. Bush, but his Republican Party is unrecognizable as the party we have known.

Recall the Eisenhower Republican Party. Eisenhower, a thoroughgoing realist, was one of the most successful presidents of the 20th century. So was the prudential Reagan, wary of using military force. Nixon would have been a good secretary of state, but emotionally wounded and suspicious, he was not suited to the presidency. Yet he, too, with Henry Kissinger, was a realist. George W. Bush represents a huge swing away from such traditional conservative Republicanism.

But the conservative movement in America has followed him, evacuating prudence and realism for ideology and folly. Left behind has been the experienced realism of James Burnham. Also vacated, the Burkean realism of Willmoore Kendall, who aspired, as he told Leo Strauss, to be the "American Burke." That Burkeanism entailed a sense of the complexity of society and the resistance of cultures to change. Gone, too, has been the individualism of Frank Meyer and the commonsense Western libertarianism of Barry Goldwater.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 12:45 pm
tryingtohelp wrote:
It is not a war on Iraq. It is an invasion. It is a war on the terrorists. Our President had every right to send the troops in and I am glad he did. It was about time was my response. It should have been done earlier.


This is a false statement. Even the Shrub--whose puppetmaster, Cheney, had gone out to inferentially suggest there was a connection between al Qaeda and Iraq--did not attempt to make any such claim in his infamous State of the Union address for 2002 (delivered in January, 2003). This is a point of view peddled to simple-minded folks who don't wish to inquite to deeply into the cause and effect of such decisions, and who are not informed at all on the history of the middle east, or Muslim fundamentalists, or the greivances which those who do engage in terror attacks allege.

In my first response to this thread, i posted a link to the letter sent to President Clinton in 1998 by the Project for a New American Century, and signed by Cheney, Perle, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, among a number of other neo-cons. The desire to invade Iraq pre-dates the attack on USS Cole, as well as the September 11th, 2001 attack. The neo-cons, taking counsel of their capitalist-driven desires, have long wanted to establish military bases in southwest Asia, and have specifically stated, prior to those attacks which i mentioned, that they wished to see military bases established in southwest Asia. Hence, the invasion of Iraq, which was a goal of the neo-cons and high-ranking members of this administration before the terror attack of September 11th gave them the leverage to delude the uncritical supporters of said administration.

As i also point out in my first response to this thread, Iraq has a long history of sectarian violence, and violence against foreign occupying forces. Iraq was created by Arthur Balfour and Winston Churchill for the express purpose of uniting the petroleum rich regions on Mosul, Baghdad and Basra, to become a mandate protected by England, which could then exploit it to their advantage. In the 1920s, the English faced as violent an insurrgency, if one less well-armed and less well-lead than the one which today exists in Iraq.

When Iraq was created, it encompassed three distinct groups. In the northern, Mosul region, the Kurds were the largest single ethnic group. The Kurds include Sunni Muslims, Shi'ite Muslims, Christians, Animists and a handful of confessional Jews. They have consistently been united by their shared ethnicity since before this abortion of a "nation" existed. In the central portion of Iraq resided (and resides today) a Sunni Muslim "Arab" minority (it is not at all certain that Arab ancestry is a significant contributing factor in their ethnicity--although they are certainly semitic, and the Arab culture is strong enough to justify the label). In the south resided and resides today the majority of the population of that "nation," and they are Shi'ite Muslims. Because the English propped up a Hashemite monarch, they thoughtlessly and carelessly assured the dominance of the Sunni minority--to the eventual bloody cost of the Shi'ites.

Today, the Sunni minority largely comprises the insurgency, because they have lost nearly everything, including their hold on power which they exercised for four generations, and have nothing left to lose. But their defeat was sufficiently thorough that neither they, nor we, can prevent the Shi'ite majority from taking power, sooner or later, and most likely, sooner rather than later. The Shi'ites have the largest number of "militia," and the charge is justifiably made that the Iraqi army and police are dominated by Shi'ites, who use their position to wreak vengeance on Sunnis in Iraq.

This situation derives directly from the decision taken by the neo-cons to work for an invasion of Iraq, a decision taken before the al Qaeda attack on USS Cole and before the September 11th attacks. The decision was based on the desire to establish military bases in the region of the world with the largest production of the most highly-valued petroleum, and has never had anything to do with a "war on terror." The so-called war on terror was sufficiently unimportant to the Shrub and his Forty Theives of Baghdad that they were willing to rush through Afghanistan, and abandon the effort there to NATO, to re-install the warlords and heroine trafficers who so terrorized their own people that those people embraced the Taliban after the expulsion of the Soviets. The Afghans may hate the Taliban by now, but with the old warlords back in power, thanks to this administration which never cared if they engaged in "nation building," they have no reason not to hate us. The Canadians, English and Dutch have made a hell of an effort over the last six months to destroy the resurrgent Taliban in southern Afghanistan, but you don't even hear that on the news in the United States, because we are so focussed on the horrendous and unnecessary mess we're in in Iraq.

Iraq was never about terrorism, but in a marvelous example of self-fulfilling prophecy, this administration has made it a vector for terrorism, and the dissemination of the propaganda upon which terrorist recruiters rely.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 12:45 pm
sorry... link here http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2387163#2387163
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 12:47 pm
You screwed me, Mr. Mountie. Now i can't edit.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 01:06 pm
LOL...I just read your piece and realized that had happened. Sorry.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 01:08 pm
S'OK, Boss . . . i'm just finicky. There are errors one can make which spell-check won't catch, and even if you proofread before you submit, you still find errors after you do submit. I've got a really embarrassing set of errors at the very beginning.

Oh well, the points i made are still valid.
0 Replies
 
 

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