I am an extreme liberal

I started this thread with the hope of dialogue (ok, some asssholes have to get in their screeds) both georgeob, jp and lash at least entertained a desire to continue , I do have a few ideas (not total solutions) but at least some thoughts on improvement, is it possible to continue dialogue?.

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You know, of course, Dys, that these political forums are not likely to witness fusions of political ideologies. Our political values (e.g., conservative and liberal) seem to reflect personality types. In fact, our engagements tend to strengthen our positions rather than soften or modify them. I suspect that some of us participate in these forums solely for the enjoyment they get from ideological conflict.
I acknowledge that most of my political positions reflect values that, in turn, express my personality structure. In these forums we might share information on events we have read about; but our respective responses to such events are not likely to be altered by comments from people on the other side of the political/personality spectrum.

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I think the real questions should be based on individual beliefs rather than their political or religious membership. I don't see how the current supporters of Bush can be "real" republicans with bigger government, higher national debt, and tax breaks for the wealthy during a time of war. Even during Clinton's presidency, hew was more centrist than most democratic presidents before him. Bush could be considered to the left of Clinton in many ways.

As for religion, I'm not sure how anybody reconcilies religion and actual reality. Many of the conflicts are contemporary such as Ireland, Iraq, and some would include the US.

At least that's the impressions that I have.

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C .I., good, accurate impressions if you ask me.

I agree that Bush's "republicanism" and "conservativtism" certainly are not that of earlier republican-conservative leaders. I almost miss the latter (except for their domestic policies).

My concern is that when the liberals take charge--and I think they will--that they will focus only on what must be done to remain in power (and that, of course, will be a policy of centrism). To some extent that is necessary, but I think that the acquisition of power should be in order to do good things with that power. The retention of power is essential but not if its sole purpose is to further the careers of politicians.

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JLN, I think what the dems are talking about on minimum wage, illegal immigration, health care, and the Iraq war are issues most Americans wish to pursue. If they stick with the important isuses of the day for the next two years, they will have the support of most Americans. If they don't, we can see the GOP taking over. I believe most dems understand all this, but politics is never black and white.

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dyslexia wrote:

in just one of Colorado's 183 school districts, Colorado Springs School District 11, 24 administrators make more than $100,000 - including the superintendent ($272,000), two deputy superintendents ($203,000), four executive directors ($139,000), a community relations director ($113,000), plus 16 others making more than Colorado's governor. ... only about 57 percent of their money reaches their classrooms. This is an example ot "school board" governance and it stinks. I believe there is more than sufficient funding for (generally speaking) public education but over the past 3 decades increases in funding have beenused to develop a broadened "administrative" cadre with no real function so they findselves generating increased documentation for the still too large classroom sizes, lack of educational materials, building maintenance etc. Which has had the result of less classroom teaching and more busy-work in order to justify the expanding administrators occupation.

In the spirit of "continuing the dialogue" ---

I agree fully with your estimate of the Colorado Springs School Board. I have observed analogous issues (some involving criminal corruption) with the Washington DC School Board.

My only issue with you is that the alternatives of Federal or State government run schools offer the same potential for inflated administrative costs and corruption, but with even less potential for local accountability. I fear the remedy here may be worse than the disease.

I believe that, on a national basis, one of the chief impediments to effective public education in the country is the interlocking worlds of Teachers Unions, the NEA, Text Book Publishers, and a standing Educational bureaucracy at the state and Federal government levels. Careers are made by self-serving functionaries going from one to the other. The system is stagnant, resistant to change, accountability or competition, and seriously underperforming in many parts of the country.

I believe it needs competition through vouchers and similar programs to shock its component parts out of their inward-looking complacency and into a focus on their real mission and the people they are paid to serve.

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McGentrix wrote:

plainoldme wrote:
McGentrix wrote:

The rest of your statement is nothing more then an irrational, emotional screed that has zero basis in reality. I hope you don't mind if I don't use your example as a typical liberal, but rather that of one of those far left, moonbat liberals that can't see the real world through the haze.

What do you know about reality?

A whole lot more then you.

It's spelled than. I suggest you read Confessions of an Economic Hit Man.

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jpinMilwaukee wrote:

What I will not accept is the status quo. We hear time and time again how
the poor are getting poorer and the rich getting richer. With a welfare
system as large as it is... why is that? Isn't the system designed to help
out the less fortunate? TThe system is not working.

What I will accept is helping people achieve their goals.

But, conservatism is about accepting the status quo.

And, conservatives reserve the right to dictate what people's goals should be.

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In all seriousness, I ask what about the children of people who disapprove of education? Who never read to their kids? Who ridicule intelligent people? Who were in special ed programs themselves and whose kids are even worse off than they were?

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cjhsa wrote:

Are you libs saying you know how to spend my money better than I do? Cheezits, that's why I carry a gun!

No, you carry a gun because you are a violent person.

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I'll agree to JL's distinctions on conservatives - there are conservatives and conservatives, and liberals and liberals, and by way of a memory of some diagram Craven once worked out in early a2k days, more of a four directional diagram than we all usually chatter about.

I flare up in irritation from time to time hearing of americans as a monolithic group and muslims as a monolithic group. I'd rather arguments be more pinpointed, even re the dreaded conservatives - not that I'm an excellent arguer myself.

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To those who refuse to put the money spent per child into context:

1.) Think about the money the superintendent is paid. That's part of the total.

2.) Think of how much it costs to heat those crappy buildings with aluminum framed windows. That's part of the total. More is spent on infrastructure than on instruction.

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Doesn't it frost you when we have schools in the US that are unsafe for our children while we build new schools in Iraq?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

What you don't see is the increase in minority student drop outs, teaching students to pass a test over creativity, and the closing of many schools across the country. If those are "benefits" in your opinion, you need to go back and learn the damage NCLB has imposed on the American school system and our students.

CI. The three schools where I've spent time in the classroom observing and interviewing teachers all report significant improvement across the board with student test scores and graduation rates.

I think poor schools should be closed and the students that were suffering in poor schools should be offered successful schools.

I am unaware of statistics that show an increase in minority drop out rates--and would want to make sure --if your assertion is accurate--that the drop outs were related to higher teacher standards. The connection seems unlikely. However, since you are privy to this information, surely you'll share the link. Thank you.

Dys,

I am very interested in the direction you seemed to be leading with the thread. I'll read up on the conversation you were having with georgeob1.

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This story is taken from Opinion at sacbee.com.

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Other view: Under NCLB, state tinkers with dropoutsBy Russell W. Rumberger and Daniel J. Losen -- Special To The Bee
Published 2:15 am PDT Friday, April 29, 2005
California has a federally approved plan to solve the state's high school dropout problem. The bad news is it will take 375 years.
The state submitted its plan in response to the federal No Child Left Behind (NCLB) legislation enacted in 2002. NCLB requires states to demonstrate that all schools and districts are making "adequate yearly progress" toward the goal of all students reaching proficiency in state-designated reading and math tests within 12 years. In addition, the legislation requires that states establish a high school graduation rate goal and demonstrate that all schools and districts either reach the goal or make progress toward it. California originally set a goal of 100 percent, but has since revised it to a less lofty 82.8 percent.

Unfortunately, the federal government doesn't require states to use a realistic measure of high school graduation rates. California's method inflates that rate. By counting only the official dropouts and graduates, it ignores tens of thousands of students who start school in the ninth grade but who disappear from the rolls at some point between ninth and 12th grade. Thus, the dropout figures are notoriously inaccurate. The vast numbers of missing students left out of the formula led to an official statewide graduation rate of 87 percent in 2002.

The report released in March by the Civil Rights Project at Harvard used a formula based instead on actual enrollment numbers, comparing the number of graduates from grade 12 with the number of students enrolled in each of the previous four grades. When California's graduates for 2002 were calculated using this method, the state's overall graduation rate was 71 percent. Breaking down that figure, the data show that white students graduated at a rate of 78 percent. Minority graduation rates were much lower in the state: 57 percent for African Americans, 60 percent for Latinos and 52 percent for Native Americans.

The biggest problem with NCLB is the manipulations of numbers by the schools to meet federal standards without considering the damage it's doing to minority students. That's not progress.

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That narrative didn't provide any evidence that the NCLB had anything to do with the drop outs. It only asserted that California's attempt to meet federal goals masked the truth about drop outs.

California just needs to stop lying. Why do you blame the NCLB? I've witnessed successful schools--bad teachers are being weeded out, salaries are attracting better teachers, students basic understanding of reading and math are improving. I'm seeing it where I am.

I'd love other teachers to give accounts as to how it's playing in their neck of the woods....(but not on dys' thread. On one of the teacher threads, maybe. Very interested in following The Dys.)

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Lash, The dropout rates for minorities before NCLB was much lower. Schools must show progress or get less funding. Teachers spend too much time teaching to the "test," rather than the creativity required to help them in the future. If schools and teachers were really interested in the minority students, they would find out why they suddenly dropped out of school, and do some follow up. The demands of NCLB provides the reverse motivation for schools to help each student succeed in school. NCLB is also underfunded. Think about the federal mandates, and why minority students are dropping out. It should be self-evident if you were interested enough to learn the truth.

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NCLB requires states to show progress in achievement for up to seven identifiable subgroups - including poor, minority, English learner and disabled students. But the U.S. secretary of education has decided states do not need to show progress in graduation rates for these subgroups. This provides a perverse incentive: One way to raise both the aggregate test scores and the test scores of these subgroups is to get the most low-achieving students to leave the school or the district, either by dropping out or transferring to a program that issues a high school equivalency diploma. Although such students would lower the NCLB graduation rate, the school or district could still make adequate yearly progress as long as it showed a 0.1 percent improvement in its aggregate graduation rate. So by discharging the most difficult at-risk students and working with the best of the rest, both test scores and graduation rates could improve. This practice already has been reported in New York City and in Houston, and has been documented in the research literature.

Even if such practices don't show up in California, the lack of a timely plan to reduce the state's dropout figures is shameful, and costly in the long run. The census estimates that over their working lives, dropouts earn $270,000 less than students who graduate and don't go to college. That means the 66,567 students who the state admits dropped out of California public schools in a single year (2002-03) will cost the state $14 billion in lost wages. If the actual number of dropouts is much higher than the official state figures, then the cost is even greater. Dropouts also cost the state in other ways through higher crime rates, increased welfare and more dependence on public health care. Last year's dropouts likely will result in 1,225 more state inmates who will cost taxpayers $73 million to incarcerate.

California's long-term welfare depends critically on its willingness and ability to fully educate the state's growing and diverse student population. Its dropout plan falls far short of this goal.

About the writers:
Russell W. Rumberger is a professor of education and director of the UC Linguistic Minority Research Institute at the University of California, Santa Barbara. He can be reached at [email protected]. Daniel J. Losen is a senior education law and policy associate at the Civil Rights Project at Harvard University. He can be reached at [email protected]. Both were contributing editors to the report "Dropouts in California: Confronting the Graduation Rate Crisis," issued in March by the Civil Rights Project.

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The dropout/pushout syndrome is likely to grow worse unless the current exclusive emphasis on test-driven accountability structures in most states is balanced with more powerful incentives for schools to "hold onto" students through graduation. Paige has an opportunity under NCLB to issue strong regulations that will end dropout accounting abuses and promote accountability for improving graduation rates. While this alone will not solve the dropout crisis in this country, it will send a strong signal to schools that efforts to artificially inflate test scores by removing struggling students will no longer be tolerated. Leaving no child behind means moving all students, minority and non-minority alike, to a diploma. And beyond.

Christopher Edley, Jr. is a professor at Harvard Law School and the co-founder and co-director of The Civil Rights Project at Harvard University. Johanna Wald is a senior development/policy analyst for The Civil Rights Project. Founded in 1997, the central mission of The Civil Rights Project is to help renew the civil rights movement by bridging the world of ideas and actions and by becoming a pre-eminent source of intellectual capital and a forum for building consensus within that movement.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Lash, The dropout rates for minorities before NCLB was much lower. Schools must show progress or get less funding. Teachers spend too much time teaching to the "test," rather than the creativity required to help them in the future. If schools and teachers were really interested in the minority students, they would find out why they suddenly dropped out of school, and do some follow up. The demands of NCLB provides the reverse motivation for schools to help each student succeed in school. NCLB is also underfunded. Think about the federal mandates, and why minority students are dropping out. It should be self-evident if you were interested enough to learn the truth.

I am interested enough to become a teacher and specialize in minority literature for all students, CI.

Unfortunately, after seeing some classrooms, the basics need to be taught. Chocolate Souffle is nice, but not if you didn't get any meat or vegetables.

The schools that are perpetrating this crime on minority students should be severely punished.

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I am an extreme liberal

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