Zygote, Fetus, Clump of Cells, Alive, Dead???

Abortion is 100% fatal to the unborn, if you wanna talk about damage....

real life wrote:

Abortion is 100% fatal to the unborn, if you wanna talk about damage....

..and again with your presumed equality of value.

Who will you save from the fire real life, one real child or 50 frozen embryos?

Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
heartburn and indigestion
constipation
weight gain
dizziness and light-headedness
bloating, swelling, fluid retention
hemmorhoids
abdominal cramps
yeast infections
congested, bloody nose
acne and mild skin disorders
skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
mild to severe backache and strain
increased headaches
difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
increased urination and incontinence
bleeding gums
pica
breast pain and discharge
swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy
inability to take regular medications
shortness of breath
higher blood pressure
hair loss
tendency to anemia
curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities
infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
(pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and
are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
extreme pain on delivery
hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

stretch marks (worse in younger women)
loose skin
permanent weight gain or redistribution
abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life)
changes to breasts
varicose veins
scarring from episiotomy or c-section
other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
Occasional complications and side effects:

hyperemesis gravidarum
temporary and permanent injury to back
severe scarring requiring later surgery (especially after additional pregnancies)
dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
gestational diabetes
placenta previa
anemia (which can be life-threatening)
thrombocytopenic purpura
severe cramping
embolism (blood clots)
medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
hormonal imbalance
ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
hemorrhage and
numerous other complications of delivery
refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
severe post-partum depression and psychosis
research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease
Less common (but serious) complications:

peripartum cardiomyopathy
cardiopulmonary arrest
magnesium toxicity
severe hypoxemia/acidosis
massive embolism
increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
malignant arrhythmia
circulatory collapse
placental abruption
obstetric fistula
More permanent side effects:

future infertility
permanent disability
death.

Calm down, Eorl. I never said there weren't side effects to pregnancy. But it isn't the same thing as a foreign parasite invading the body of another organism, which may bring infectious agents along with it and will drain the host for most of it's life. A parasite is also capable of moving on to another host if necessary.

In addition, many parasites, such as a tapeworm, can exist outside the body of the host -- without assistance. None of that is true for a human embryo or fetus.

But I can't help wondering why it is so important to you to classify the embryo or fetus as a "parasite." Just an attempt to devalue its significance?

I noticed it's the only point in my post that you've touched on.

Which would you choose for yourself -- the damage the woman may or may not[/i] suffer during pregnancy; or the 100% certain damage, DEATH, that the unborn will ALWAYS suffer in a successful abortion?

real life wrote:

Which would you choose for yourself -- the damage the woman may or may not[/i] suffer during pregnancy; or the 100% certain damage, DEATH, that the unborn will ALWAYS suffer in a successful abortion?

I'll answer yours when you answer mine. 50 embryos or a child? (For therein lies the answer to your question.)

Hey, I'm calm.

I rarely try to rebuff an entire post and deal with everything every poster says. Posts get enormous, and I do have to do some work, ya know.

On this point, I thought you were clearly wrong. Pregnancy is not the same thing as parasitism, but it is so close that definitions need to be written to deliberatley exclude it, because in almost every way, it is a parasitic relationship.

Let me ask you Stray Cat, if a hospital was on fire and you could save a small fridge containing 50 frozen embryos or one 5 year old child...which would you choose?

I'd pick the 5 year old child, no question. I'll even go you one better, Eorl. There are some situations in which I believe an abortion is justified. ....... Congratulations to you and your wife! :wink:

Eorl wrote:

real life wrote:

Which would you choose for yourself -- the damage the woman may or may not[/i] suffer during pregnancy; or the 100% certain damage, DEATH, that the unborn will ALWAYS suffer in a successful abortion?

I'll answer yours when you answer mine. 50 embryos or a child? (For therein lies the answer to your question.)

you'd be a fool to expect that RL will just simply answer your question. He'll attack your question before answering it.

Don't hold your breathe, this waltz is all too familiar.

Stray Cat wrote:

I'd pick the 5 year old child, no question. I'll even go you one better, Eorl. There are some situations in which I believe an abortion is justified. ....... Congratulations to you and your wife! :wink:

Thanks, Stray Cat!

I'd pick the 5 year old also.

Couple of questions...

Who do you think should be decide which situations are justifiable? You? Doctors? Scientists? Ethicists? Politicians?

If a 14 year old girl fell pregnant to her father, and knew that her father would kill her if anyone found out....what options would you like available to her?

Should she have to prove paternity and thereby get her father arrested? Should she try to abort the foetus herself? Should she run away and try her luck on the streets?

What if she's 24 and in total fear of her violent husband?

What if she nearly died in a previous pregnancy, and is determined not to risk it, even though the doctors tell her she should be OK?

What if she's 48 and knows that she has better than 1-50 chance of having to care for a child with Downs syndrome...would you prefer she find her own method of abortion also? Would you lock her up to ensure she does nothing? If she does, is she guilty of murder?

Basically, what makes you think you have the right to declare (let alone decide) who is entitled to an abortion and who isn't?

(As I like to point out, I'm not in favour of abortion (few people are)..... but I will fight tooth and nail to make it safe and available to all)

Who do you think should be decide which situations are justifiable? You? Doctors? Scientists? Ethicists? Politicians?

If a 14 year old girl fell pregnant to her father, and knew that her father would kill her if anyone found out....what options would you like available to her?

Should she have to prove paternity and thereby get her father arrested?

What if she's 24 and in total fear of her violent husband?

What if she nearly died in a previous pregnancy, and is determined not to risk it, even though the doctors tell her she should be OK?

How about adoption? There are people who are more than willing to adopt a special needs child.

Never said I had the right to decide that. I just offered my opinion. No law against that, is there?

Ok, that's the best I can do at one-thirty in the morning. I'll leave the rest of you to thrash this out.

Thanks for the interesting conversation, though.

(As for the previous post, you know my position better than anyone. I can't believe you don't understand it. That means it's simply an attempt at pure slur, which I'll try to ignore.)