2
   

Zygote, Fetus, Clump of Cells, Alive, Dead???

 
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:29 pm
As I said, these 'lifeboat' scenarios have been around forever, and they don't tell us much.

Positing a problem with 2 wrong answers as the only possibilities really doesn't mean a lot.

Many variations are out there "would you let Mother Teresa or your child fall off a cliff", etc

They are a kind of 'when did you stop beating your wife' type question. Either answer is wrong.

Why don't they mean a lot? Because they bear no resemblance to the reality of the issue of abortion.

Pro-aborts want to pretend that if abortion is illegal, lots of women are gonna die.

But the history prior to Roe in the USA certainly doesn't bear that out. And I suspect most other countries are similar.

Deaths from illegal abortions were few and rare.

And deaths for legal abortions take place as well.

So what have you solved , other than killing millions of children?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:33 pm
See! Real doesn't answer direct questions, and can only say the question is meaningless when discussing the issue of "life." He's allowed to ask, but all questions directed at him is a different "scenario" that's existed forever more.
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baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:52 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
See! Real doesn't answer direct questions, and can only say the question is meaningless when discussing the issue of "life." He's allowed to ask, but all questions directed at him is a different "scenario" that's existed forever more.


Wow! Shocked

That's the pot calling the kettle black - now isn't it? :wink:
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:54 pm
Well, sorry you are feeling neglected.

Join the club, CI.

I have asked the direct question:

Do you have ANY medical evidence that the unborn is NOT a living human being?

to numerous pro-abortion members, including you, on this forum.

Have I gotten direct answers from you or others?

The difference between my question and Eorl's lifeboat scenario is that I didn't give a question with only 2 wrong answers as the only possibilities.

My question was an open ended invitation to present real evidence for your side.

Hardly the same thing.

My question addresses the heart of the issue. Most pro-lifers and pro-aborts as well will agree that the question of whether the unborn is a living human being or not is THE issue in the abortion topic.

But getting pro-aborts to address it directly is a rare occurence.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:55 pm
No. Prove where this pot is calling the kettle black?
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baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 01:11 pm
Quote:
Something from a NOVA documentary: Imagine you are sitting in a lab with a young child. The lab contains a small fridge containing one hundred frozen embryos. Suddenly, there is a fire in the lab and you can either grab the child and run out or grab the small fridge containing the embryos and run out. What would you do? Your answer should answer the question whether you consider a child's life equal to the life of an embryo.

P


Despite the absurdity of this poor example - I'll play the "what if" game.

If the start of the fire was so abrupt as to require an instantaneous reaction - and/or the intensity of the flames was so overwhelming that either the life of the child or the lives of the embryo's could be saved -and/or the "fridge" was not the cause of the flames - and/or the child was not already being burned to death - and/or the lab's government required fire-prevention system had not done it's job - and/or there was no other able-bodied sould available to help - and/or I was not disabled by the fire - and/or I could not push the fridge out of the room and save the child as well - and/or.... etc, etc, etc. - I would save the child as would most human-beings.

BTW: What is the point to all of this?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 01:13 pm
You guys are only good at the "what if" game if it's not directed at you!

Poor losers throughout. Black kettle.
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baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 01:24 pm
[quote...My question addresses the heart of the issue. Most pro-lifers and pro-aborts as well will agree that the question of whether the unborn is a living human being or not is THE issue in the abortion topic....

But getting pro-aborts to address it directly is a rare occurence.[/quote]

Especially when photo's are included! :wink:
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 01:34 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
No. Prove where this pot is calling the kettle black?


LOL Laughing Not worth my time - it's just a personal observation of mine. :wink:
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 01:37 pm
Not worth your time? ha ha ha ... Losers.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 02:06 pm
Quote:


BTW: What is the point to all of this?


My question exactly when this trollish thread started.

As has been pointed out it is silly to ask if the third trimester is a zygote or a clump of cells. Then we have gotten denial that the photos had anything to do with the purpose of the thread. Now we get an argument that they are important again.


A rather large kettle disguised as a troll. Nothing more.
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 03:37 pm
parados wrote:
Quote:


BTW: What is the point to all of this?


My question exactly when this trollish thread started.

As has been pointed out it is silly to ask if the third trimester is a zygote or a clump of cells. Then we have gotten denial that the photos had anything to do with the purpose of the thread. Now we get an argument that they are important again.


A rather large kettle disguised as a troll. Nothing more.


Laughing Thought you'd checked out on this thread! Laughing

Why still here parados? Conscience? Pretty soon you're going to claim that the photo's have been altered.

And still no answers... :wink:

Tell you what - I'll make it easy on you - because you came back. One simple question.

When does human-life begin?

Balls in your court parados! Very Happy
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 05:26 pm
Thuis guy never gives up! He's trying awfully hard to connect a seed with human life. When does an egg become a chick?
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 05:37 pm
Nope, the ball is still in real life's court.

This is the question he refuses to answer, on the grounds that both answers are wrong !??!!?

Pauligirl wrote something like:

Quote:
Given the choice of saving one child or 100 frozen embryos in a fire....which do you save?


real life, why is it I can answer this question, but you can't (won't)?

There is a right answer, and I have no qualms about it - save the child.

Your turn, real life.

So far, faced with this scenario, we are left to conclude you would be paralyzed by indecision and both the child and the embryos would burn.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 06:29 pm
EorI, However he answers this question, it will be "conditional." They're always able to ask a question about the question, but refuses to answer the simplist ones, because they know they're between and rock and a hardp....
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 08:46 pm
That's right C.I.

..and this question cuts to the very heart of the situation. I am willing to sacrifice a helluva lotta embryos to save the lives of a few stupid teenagers.

To ignore this question is to ignore the reasons why abortion should be legal.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 08:54 pm
Precisely! Their emphasis on the embryo vs the living makes their position untenable.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 10:03 pm
Strange how your question which 'cuts to the heart of the issue' doesn't address any situation that is found in the real world.

The question when a woman is pregnant is not regarding 100 frozen embryos, but regarding one growing embryo.

The question when a woman is pregnant is not whether she dies or the unborn dies, but whether the unborn will die to make the abortionist a buck.

The question when a woman is pregnant is very simple -- is the unborn child she is carrying a living human being or not?

If she wants to keep it, then it is treated as a living human being and anyone intentionally harming or killing the unborn may be charged with murder in many jurisdictions.

How is this possible if the unborn is just 'a parasite', a 'piece of the mother's body', just a 'potential human' and only a 'blob of undifferentiated tissue'?

If she doesn't want to keep it then it can be killed without consequence.

Does the medical status of the unborn differ if it is wanted or if it is not?

No.

It goes through EXACTLY the same path of growth and development either way.

Your question avoids the 'heart of the issue' and twists reality until it is pure fiction. No pregnant woman faces the choice that you claim 'cuts to the heart of the situation'.

But twisting things until they are fiction is nothing new to you.

One need only be reminded again how you attempted to twist the wikipedia article on 'Human Beings' to make it appear that the article supported your wild position that one is not a human being unless and until one is able to build a fire, produce art and produce literature.

Eorl wrote:


real life....

From Wiki:

Quote:

Humans, or human beings, are bipedal primates belonging to the mammalian species Homo sapiens (Latin for "wise man" or "knowing man") under the family Hominidae (known as the great apes).[1][2] Humans have a highly developed brain capable of abstract reasoning, language and introspection. This, combined with an erect body carriage that frees their upper limbs for manipulating objects, has allowed humans to make greater use of tools than any other species.

Like most primates, humans are by nature social. However, humans are particularly adept at utilizing systems of communication for self-expression and the exchange of ideas. Humans create complex social structures composed of co-operating and competing groups, ranging in scale from individual families to nations, and social interaction between humans has established a variety of traditions, rituals, ethics, values, social norms, and laws which form the basis of human society. Humans also have a marked appreciation for beauty and aesthetics which, combined with the human desire for self-expression, has led to cultural innovations such as art, literature and music.

Humans are also noted for their desire to understand and influence the world around them, seeking to explain and manipulate natural phenomena through religion, science, philosophy and mythology. This natural curiosity has led to the development of advanced tools and skills; humans are the only known species to build fires, cook their food, clothe themselves, and use numerous other technologies.



How many foetuses do you know who fit this definition? No medical tests have been done on foetus art, literature or fire building skills, so medical proof either way will be forthcoming.


So is an adult who has never built a fire considered a human being?

What about one who has never produced art or literature? Are they non-human also?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 10:07 pm
A voice of desperation.

So is an adult who has never built a fire considered a human being?

What about one who has never produced art or literature? Are they non-human also?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 10:07 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Precisely! Their emphasis on the embryo vs the living makes their position untenable.


What garbage.

I have always made an exception for abortion if the mother's life is in danger.

However this is rarely the case.

As you are well aware, the overwhelming majority of abortions are done for reasons of convenience, not medical necessity. Even Planned Parenthood has websites documenting this.
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