Capital Punishment --- For or Against?

I'm not sure the subject merits such addressing. But if it does, it should be by you, not others.

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well I'm curious so I'll start it

will let you know where later

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Ticomaya wrote:

What's the difference between "pro-choice" and "pro-abortion"? None really. It's the same thing, but you demonstrate the semantic tricks of the pro-choice/abortion crowd.

We could also call it "pro-killing-innocent-unborn-babies," despite your claims otherwise. All you have done is rationalized that the baby is not human in order to justify your thinking on the issue (i.e., "If a woman wants to kill her baby, she ought to be able to do so, after all, it's her baby. And anyway, it's not a "baby," ... it's a "fetus" or an "embryo" or some other name that indicates it is not living.").

How can you even ask such a question, Tico? There is a huge difference
between the two. Being "pro-choice" defines and supports the right
to choose. In other words: I support whatever choice my fellow female
has decided for herself, and should she choose to have an abortion,
it is her choice to make, not mine. That doesn't mean, I would do the
same. Got it?

One cannot kill an unborn being you refer to as baby, as it is not defined as such by the law. You of all people should know the definition, Tico.

----

Okay, back to the death penalty topic.

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http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2356354#2356354

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I don't like the idea of abortion or capital punishment. But having been through a pregnancy and knowing what a commitment of time, effort, and actual physical labor it takes, if a woman doesn't want to do it, I can't imagine telling her she has to- so in a crazy way- I guess I'm pro-choice, but anti-abortion. I hate the act, but I can understand the reasoning behind it sometimes. I think baddog and real life made some interesting points on that subject though.

But I am anti-capital punishment. I don't believe that's the states role. And I'd rather live in country that doesn't base decisions like that on cost - but moreso on morality and ethics.

Still, after really thinking about it, I came to the conclusion that I'd find it easier to kill someone (even myself, god forbid) who had hurt or killed someone I loved, than I would find it to have an abortion. I think it has something to do with culpability-not vengeance-but culpability because I do believe it's a baby with a beating heart. And I think most people do. When it's planned and a blessed event, it's a baby. When it's a mistake it's a fetus. Now that's hypocritical.

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I think Aidan's response expresses a reasonable, and probably widespread, position on the matter.

Even those firmly convinced of the immorality of abortion should recognize that it is not the state's obligation to enforce all elements of morality. Indeed the attempt to do so would inexorably lead to tyranny. Instead the state enforces only those aspects of morality that are needed to preserve civil society and balance the freedoms of the many and the individuals who make it up,

That said, I also believe the present debate in this country was ignited by those who advocated and the Supreme Court that wrongfully legislated an edict forbidding the States in their legislators from finding their own democratic solutions to these issues -- that our constitution clearly reserves to them. The flexibility and diversity of our Federal system permit a greater degree of wisdom in the resolution of this matter, through the individual legislative processes of the 50 states, than the misguided Supreme Court and the organized "pro choice" (what a misnomer!) advocates have allowed us in the judicial fiat of Row vs. Wade..

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CalamityJane wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
What's the difference between "pro-choice" and "pro-abortion"? None really. It's the same thing, but you demonstrate the semantic tricks of the pro-choice/abortion crowd.

We could also call it "pro-killing-innocent-unborn-babies," despite your claims otherwise. All you have done is rationalized that the baby is not human in order to justify your thinking on the issue (i.e., "If a woman wants to kill her baby, she ought to be able to do so, after all, it's her baby. And anyway, it's not a "baby," ... it's a "fetus" or an "embryo" or some other name that indicates it is not living.").

How can you even ask such a question, Tico? There is a huge difference
between the two. Being "pro-choice" defines and supports the right
to choose. In other words: I support whatever choice my fellow female
has decided for herself, and should she choose to have an abortion,
it is her choice to make, not mine. That doesn't mean, I would do the
same. Got it?

With all due respect, CJ, I find that attempted distinction ludicrous. The "pro-choice" crowd is "pro-abortion," regardless of the choice they would make for themselves.

Quote:

One cannot kill an unborn being you refer to as baby, as it is not defined as such by the law. You of all people should know the definition, Tico.

I see. Since it's legal, it must be okay? Thus, since capital punishment is legal, it must okay as well?

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ticomaya, FYI, a unborn baby is called a "fetus." A fetus has no legal rights in this country over the woman carrying it. Your play on semantics by you, a lawyer, only shows your inability and poor skills in arguing your POV.

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CalamityJane wrote:

One cannot kill an unborn being you refer to as baby, as it is not defined as such by the law. You of all people should know the definition, Tico.
.

At one time our law did not conider "beings" with dark skin as humans with rights to life, freedom and property. Did that make it right?

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george, Shame on you! Dark skinned people are not equivalent to fetuses, the same as everybody else.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

ticomaya, FYI, a unborn baby is called a "fetus." A fetus has no legal rights in this country over the woman carrying it. Your play on semantics by you, a lawyer, only shows your inability and poor skills in arguing your POV.

And the death penalty is also legal in 40 states ... so it doesn't matter what your opinion is of the matter, does it, c.i.?

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I made no suggestion of either equivalence or difference. If you will read my post you will see that I suggested only that the law alone does not make things right or wrong.

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Linkat wrote:

baddog1 wrote:
CalamityJane wrote:
Oh that's so interesting - real life is for the death penalty and he
cries bloody murder in the abortion threads. Aren't you a hypocrit,
real life?

Hi Jane:

Just wondering then - if a pro-abortionist is against CP - would that also be considered hypocritical?

It depends on what some one's thought is on an unborn baby...if some one feels that a fetus is not a human being[/i][/u] (as this is a moral issues), then I see no hypocrisy.

emphasis mine

This is exactly what is wrong with the pro-abortion argument.

What do their feelings have to do with it?

Either the unborn is, in fact, a living human being; or the unborn is not, in fact, a living human being.

Feelings are irrelevant in determining the personhood of the unborn.

What medical facts can you cite to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the unborn is NOT a living human being?

Would you accept a pro-capital punishment argument based on the feelings of one person?

'Well, I feel that he should die and the law should allow any individual who feels this way to execute him.'

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Linkat wrote:

real life wrote:
CalamityJane wrote:
Oh that's so interesting - real life is for the death penalty and he
cries bloody murder in the abortion threads. Aren't you a hypocrit,
real life?

Do you understand the difference between an innocent child who has not committed, nor been accused of, nor had opportunity nor means to commit any crime, was given no due process, had no right of appeal, had no public hearing , had no advocate to plead his case...................

....................... and one tried and convicted by a jury of his peers of a heinous crime, having had opportunity to speak in his own defense and present evidence in his own favor, given numerous opportunities for appeal , given legal representation at public expense if need be, and having exhausted all means of due process?

No, apparently you don't.

Do you believe in Thou Shall not Kill - apparantely not -

Don't yank a single scripture verse out of context and try to make it fit your idea.

This verse from the Torah, when read in context of the entire Torah -- which explicitly allowed capital punishment -- does not mean what you are trying to imply.

And I believe you already know that.

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real life,

Do you think capital punishment is necessary?
Do you think it's a matter of justice?
Is it your religious belief?

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ticomaya, You're a dummer lawyer than I could have imagined. You say 40?

Tuesday, April 19, 2005
Death Penalty - 34 states permit executions
By Kavan Peterson, Stateline.org Staff Writer

By every measure, the death penalty in the United States has been declining steadily since executions peaked in 1999, and the trend likely will continue in 2005.

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echi wrote:

real life,

Do you think capital punishment is necessary?
Do you think it's a matter of justice?
Is it your religious belief?

I do think capital punishment is justified in some circumstances.

Society has the right of self defense against predators.

I don't think that it is only a religious position, since many non-religious people hold it as well.

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real life wrote:

Would you accept a pro-capital punishment argument based on the feelings of one person?

Would you?

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Seems to be some disagreement about how many states allow capital punishment.

This article cites 38 as the number , and names 12 that (supposedly) do not as:

STATES WITHOUT DEATH PENALTY

# Alaska
# Hawaii
# Iowa
# Maine
# Massachusetts
# Michigan
# Minnesota
# North Dakota
# Rhode Island
# Vermont
# West Virginia
# Wisconsin
# District of Columbia

http://www.fdlreporter.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061029/FON0101/610290480/1289/FONnews

Probably can find several other sources, citing several other numbers. I don't think it justifies the name calling that some fall into so easily when they run out of things to say.

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echi wrote:

real life wrote:
Would you accept a pro-capital punishment argument based on the feelings of one person?

Would you?

Nope.

I believe that the accused should have due process including trial by a jury of their peers, the right to present evidence in their favor and testify in their own behalf and right of appeal(s), as is currently provided for. Guilt must be beyond reasonable doubt as decided by the jury, not an individual.

It is not something that should be undertaken lightly.

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Capital Punishment --- For or Against?

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