What Is the Worst Sin?

TRUTH
Kuvasz, ....and a Hitler. Thanks for putting the matter into perspective.
And BoGoWo, thanks for that VERY PAINFUL truth. Wisdom is good even when it hurts.

ci,
re your comment--- He lies.
I suggest you look up Machiavelli's "The Prince".
Frankly its not nice but his book, a couple hundred years old, outlined the necessities of politics in a very pragmatic manner, and with an astute aprehension of human nature.
Generally, as a group we are not very nice. The larger the group that we have to deal with the less selective we can be about its members.
Politics, which may be considered the art of dealing with the widest possible group of people, necessarily is not apt to be nice. But IMO its nicer than the alternative.
In the early days of television, which I can remember, programming was designed so that the least possible number of people would shut off their set and do something else.
Politics has the same problem. The only way that I see that we can improve the level of politics is to improve the level of the electorate. This has to be done on a world wide basis. Thats where our politicians have to work. Thats is also why we have to be able to change them periodically.
AND sometimes people need help in changing them. Most do not go quietly into the night! But it used to be never. Frank is not Pollyanna .

akaMech, I've read about Machiavelli in college, so I'll skip on reading it just now. I have too many books that are more educational and entertainment value that needs to be on my reading list. But thanks any who. As for "he lies," it affects my life and my world, and theories about Machiavellinism in contemporary US is so much b.s., not many of us are ready to 'buy' it. As a matter of fact, most of the 'civilized' world is not ready to buy what GWBush and his gang is trying to pass as political expediency for the better good. c.i.

truth
Mech, you're right: Machievelli's advice to the prince was pragmatic (as opposed to ideological and moralistic). But his pragmatism had to do more with the survival of the prince--i.e., the maintenance of his power--than with the welfare of his society. I agree that the quality of a democratic political system has to do most fundamentally with the quality of the electorate. Educated, intelligent followers make for responsible leaders. But, of course, the leadership often does not see it to be in its interest to have an intellectually competent followership. And their control over the educational system (in the broadest sense, including the media) may discourage a sophisticated followership. I do think that Campaign Finance Reform is essential to the progress of our system. Right now Bush is out to campaign for 4 million dollars to promote his re-election. Personally, I hope Clinton will tour the nation to raise funds for the Democrats. I would sacrifice a thousand dollars (shows you how desperate I am) for a seat at one of those fund raisers--only to oust the Bush priracy.

JLN, I'm impressed; ready to put your money where your ......... c.i.

art
C.I., by all means. Money well spent. And I'm a tightwad.

Reading about Machiavelli is kind of like learning about sex from Playboy.
Reading "The Prince" itself and relating it's themes to all the politicians that you can remember is likely to provide you with a bit of insight.
Chamberlain lied
Hitler lied
Churchill lied
Kennedy lied
Kruschev lied
Johnson lied
Nixon lied
Stalin lied
Clinton lied
Bush Sr. lied
The Pope lied
Cardinal Lay lied
Pat Robertson lied
Why do you single out little Bush? And is it fair of you to do so?
There are very few Ghandi's in the world. Diogenes has burned a lot of oil. M

politics
Good question, Mech. But wouldn't it be foolish of me to single out Churchill or Reagon, now that they have no power? I single out Bush because I am not talking about politics theoretically. I'm talking about our immediate future. And Bush is the major threat to that future.
You would enjoy reading the poltical anthropologist, F.G. Bailey's, book Stratagems and Spoils. Probably the best application of Machievellli to modern political reality.

akaMech, There are many lies I can live with, but the lies this president is guilty of have resulted in over 3 thousand innocent Iraqi's killed, and billions spent and wasted. (My opinion.) I'm not here to be "fair" to little Bush. I'm here to be critical of what they have wrought this world of today by their lies. I see it as a transgression against humanity. c.i.

JL,
Agreed, To a prince and his party his maintenance, and that of his party is important. Thusly his aims, and that of his party must differ from the electorates.
We do not have to approve of it necessarily, but we must recognize that this conflict must exist.
Similar conflicts exist throughout all human activities.
Shopkeeper and his customers, Bankers and depositers,executives and employees. The list is probably infinite. Worse luck. M.

Sorry, Little Bush pales to insignificance compared to Kennedy.
Perhaps what he is doing is wrong but lying, unfortunetly, seems to come with the job.
IMO, lying is a red herring. I happen to approve of the little Iraqi problem, but I am much more concerned with The Patriots Act. His lying, considering the company he must keep to do his job bothers me not much.
Hate to be cynical but I kind of expect it.

Not denying you your own perceptions on Iraq. Many in this country believe as you do, so that's not any surprise to me or others on A2K. Lying in this case happens to be much more than a "red herring." He lied to win support for this war from the unsuspecting, and the world community - especially the UK, Spain, and Australia. Their leaders got stabbed in the back. Trust is something you don't buy with money. I just wonder how long it'll take for our allies to believe in our leadership again? c.i.

politics
Mech, right these role sets (dyads) involve inevitable competition. But we must remember that in a societal setting these competitions are, or should be, regulated. They do not take place in a jungle. Your cynacism regarding the manipulations of politicians becomes you. It is an attribute of all good followers--suspicion. But I agree with and share C.I.'s outrage. Without such rage--and the actions that follow from it--the plutocrats would have free reign. Power is a two-sided coin: it consists of the resources controlled by the powerful and the passivity of those they would control with it.

In very simple words, for me the biggest sin is to deliberately try to harm other people's lives (with the exception of psychopaths who do not really distinguish between good and bad).

Hey, I don't approve of the lying. I accept that it goes with the job.
I don't approve of changing diapers either but they go with babies.
I did not believe (completely) the tales of WMD's, or ability to strike U.S.
Nor would I believe him if he told me it was raining unless the dog was wet. Then I would look to see if the sprinkler was on perchance.

There are 500 or so lawmakers in Congress. I would think that their prevarication detecters would be well tuned.
Only our Senator from W.V. Robert Byrd stood up and spoke and voted against the President.
They are the ones who disappointed me. I do not necessarily expect truth from them either. But I would have expected that they would have noticed the Presidents prevarications and called him on it.
After the Tonkin Gulf Resolution, Watergate,and Monica I am disgusted that 500 lawyers could be so gullible. We hire those lawyers, not to tell the truth but to look out for our interests. They didn't!

lies+politics = diapers+babies. The only problem with your logic is that not all politicians lie, whereas all babies poop. c.i.

I bet my ass (and I'm fond of it) that ALL politicians lie.

I swear I never had sex with that woman....

How dare you call my daughters drunken sluts despite the arrests...

Never has one person gone up in my personal estimation more than Sen. Byrd for the courage and intelligence of his dissent in this issue.

Thanks for mentioning him, Mech.

I also would bet Sofia's ass (and I'm growing rather fond of it myself) that ALL politicians lie.