Muslim Cleric's remarks....

0 Replies

hingehead wrote:

I thought I was, at least in the eyes of people I consider right leaning/conservative.

I realised the other day that I don't think I can bring myself to give Labour my first preference in the fed election and that I'd definitely vote green or indy (of course I doubt there will a green candidate here) and I thought I must be an uberlefty.

I'm open to other opinions about my leftiness - not too proud to admit I could be wrong - what do you think?

I perhaps would give it to you from the perspective of American mainstream thought, but not from any other perspective.

But you were being ironic, of course, as was I.

"U(umlaut)ber" anything, practically, almost always implies an ironic or pejorative tone, don't you think?

BTW...Wilso has, indeed, similarly railed against Catholics etc.

He's a little ozzie railer.

0 Replies

lezzles wrote:

For your information hinge, some weeks ago I came across the following:

www.answers.com/topic/roman-catholic-sex-abuse-cases

It does go into great detail about the many cases that have come to light, but does mention....

"....Yet others—including non-Catholic academics such as Philip Jenkins—have observed that the Catholic Church is being unfairly singled out by a secular media which they say fails to highlight similar sexual scandals in other religious groups, such as the Anglican Communion, various Protestant churches, and the Jewish and Islamic communities. The term paedophile priests, widely used in the media, implies a distinctly higher rate of child molesters within the Roman Catholic priesthood when in reality its 1.5–2% is no higher than any other segment of society and lower than many..."

Now, back to the thread.....

Couldn't agree more. And ALL the numbers are gonna be approximations and prolly significantly under estimates.

0 Replies

It is something that would be very, very difficult to get accurate numbers on. Whatever, there is too much of it in too many spheres of society.

0 Replies

True. However said priests are in a position of power, influence and trust that few other adults are entrusted with (I'm think of boys boarding schools in the Patrician Brothers mode) - I don't think the argument that pedophilia in the catholic priest population is lower than most other populations is valid. That a 'moral' organisation employs people in positions where they can abuse their charges and then tries to cover it up for decades and ostracising the victims is beyond simplistic mathematical spin.

It does underline a point I made some time ago in this discussion the mufti's words/actions would not be as abhorrent if uttered by someone not in a position such influence. And a number of us have acknowledged that his sentiments are often verbalized other members of our community ( I think I used a fictitious great aunt) who are not muslims.

0 Replies

dlowan wrote:

But you were being ironic, of course, as was I.

"U(umlaut)ber" anything, practically, almost always implies an ironic or pejorative tone, don't you think?

Gawd you're right - my irony bone was numb, I thought you were serious and the self-doubt came crashing in.

0 Replies

hingehead wrote:

True. However said priests are in a position of power, influence and trust that few other adults are entrusted with (I'm think of boys boarding schools in the Patrician Brothers mode) - I don't think the argument that pedophilia in the catholic priest population is lower than most other populations is valid. That a 'moral' organisation employs people in positions where they can abuse their charges and then tries to cover it up for decades and ostracising the victims is beyond simplistic mathematical spin.

It does underline a point I made some time ago in this discussion the mufti's words/actions would not be as abhorrent if uttered by someone not in a position such influence. And a number of us have acknowledged that his sentiments are often verbalized other members of our community ( I think I used a fictitious great aunt) who are not muslims.

My view is that such abuse will be found wherever there is power and opportunity, and especially where there is a lax structure for identifying and dealing with it. But all that is needed are the two first.

And yes to your second paragraph's two points.

0 Replies

dlowan wrote:

My view is that such abuse will be found wherever there is power and opportunity, and especially where there is a lax structure for identifying and dealing with it. But all that is needed are the two first.

I have seen the same with host parents for exchange students (power and opportunity). and you are right about the lax process.

I have tried to convince the powers that be that the easyiest way to head this off is to confront prospective host parents with the reallity that it does happen and the kids are aware of how to deal with it if/when it does. The powers answer is that they dont want to scare prospective host parents off. ie the program has more value than the potential for a kids well being to be threatened.

I can back this with links to cries for assistance by exchange students, just not publicly. pm would be OK if health professionals are interested.

Admitedly Rotary and some other organisations have made huge inroads in the past 3 or 4 years but still will not confront directly.

0 Replies

Hadn't realised there were issues with student hosts Dad, I've known a few, in fact Mrs Hinge has a couple of relos doing/done it.

Creepy - any reason why the media hasn't touched on it? I've heard it's fairly lucrative but a big responsibility. It would be said to see the whole system tainted by a few bad people.

0 Replies

dlowan wrote:

BTW...Wilso has, indeed, similarly railed against Catholics etc.

He's a little ozzie railer.

And I was osctracized by the catholics for doing it. Very Happy

0 Replies

hingehead wrote:

Hadn't realised there were issues with student hosts Dad, I've known a few, in fact Mrs Hinge has a couple of relos doing/done it.

Creepy - any reason why the media hasn't touched on it? I've heard it's fairly lucrative but a big responsibility. It would be said to see the whole system tainted by a few bad people.

Hardly lucrative, the best/good organisations rely on volunteer hostsor minimum payments. (Good money for the some privtely run organisations but also a few fly by nighters as well) I think(?) the media has some sort of bias. one of the reasons I mentioned it on this thread is the contradiction of the medias portrayl of an exchange student, half way round the world- harrasment is to be expected in that situation. prolly havn't explained it well here but I'm sure you get the drift.

www.csfes.org

0 Replies

lezzles wrote:

What I find pitiful, small and poverty stricken is the spirit of humanity you show towards Tarnished Angel's honest attempts to discuss the situation.

dont you mean lack of humanity?

No matter I get the picture.

I dont think I have ever said I was an atheist, though you can be forgiven for assuming that from my posts. I do not attack TA or Muslims in general or Christians or Jews. I reserve my venom for a set of self propagating ideas in this case known as Islam which taken in isolation could be dismissed as harmless rubbish, but which result in real harm when allowed to spread among millions of ignorant people.

I no longer feel obliged to tread softly to avoid upsetting religious sensibilities. My[/i] sensibilities were upset last year when young British men believed bombing London Transport was an act of piety and in furtherance of God's will.

0 Replies

Steve 41oo wrote:

lezzles wrote:
What I find pitiful, small and poverty stricken is the spirit of humanity you show towards Tarnished Angel's honest attempts to discuss the situation.
dont you mean lack of humanity?

No, I find the spirit of humanity you show to be pitiful, small and poverty stricken. Whether your actual humanity is lacking, I am not in a position to judge.

0 Replies

lezzles wrote:

No, I find the spirit of humanity you show to be pitiful, small and poverty stricken.

Tough. How generous of spirit were Allah's servants who put bombs on crowded commuter trains last year?

0 Replies

Steve

I just noticed you're from London, a very efficiently run city which has probably the best organised public transport system. The tiny english island conquered the world and created an empire through its maritime power. In the 18th and 19th century sea voyages could take months and meticulous planning and rationing of food were crucial to survival. The skill of organization learned by the great sea-farers at that time helped greatly in inculcating skills of organization present to this day and reflected in the London Underground transport system of which you should justly be proud. I can imagine your horror at the London tube bombings, especially if you are a family man. The people who could spread that kind of venom and feel so much hatred are truly disturbed. The reasons, as I suggested before may be socio-economic and political rather than religious. The range of factors - historic, cultural, social, economic and political are too complex to elaborate here.

Its actually quite interesting to take the example of a country like Rwanda and the terrible genocide they went through. Rwanda was the most Christian country in Africa before the genocide started in 1994. They muslim population was around 4%. Today it stands at around 14% and its not because muslims killed off other faiths! There has been a mass of conversions in that country because of the experience they went through. The people saw Christian clergyman supporting the Hutu or Tutsi and actively participating in the genocide. The muslim community protected the innocent victims of the conflict and sheltered both Hutu and Tutsi, claiming that violence is against islam. They were practicing Jihad - yes, that same much abused catch-phrase - in protecting the weak and helpless at the cost of personal risk. This has led to great respect for Islam among ordinary Rwandans.

As Lezzles correctly stated, things are not black & white but infinite shades of grey.

0 Replies

Tarnished Angel wrote:

....The tiny english island conquered the world and created an empire through its maritime power...

Whilst I'm tempted to agree, I think others might just have another opinion.

You jump around in your analogies too much TA. I've no doubt there are truly good Muslims in Rwanda, Jews in South America, and Christians....well somewhere. Maybe Poland.

But sadly it was Islam that produced the London Tube bombers. They weren't doing it to restore Saddam to power in Iraq. They weren't doing it to liberate Yorkshire's muslims from English oppression (Yorkshire is an English county) they were doing it because someone had convinced them that they were doing the will of Allah and would be rewarded in heaven. (With virgins....or white grapes depending on your translation according to Ibn Warraq). However much you or I might deplore what they did, the problem for you is that they did it in the name of your religion.

0 Replies

Steve 41oo wrote:

But sadly it was Islam that produced the London Tube bombers.

And christianity produced Hitler. Bloody christians.

0 Replies

Steve

For good Christians you need look no further than Albania, which produced Mother Teresa who did so much good in the slums of Calcutta (the former capital of the British Raj!).

I know of no 'major' Islamic group, radical or otherwise, that wants Saddam restored to power.

I think I've already made clear that the tenets of the Islamic faith and modern day radicalism are two entirely different things - as different as Matthew 5:39 (the bit about the other cheek!) and the crusades.

The US and British governments encouraged radicalism to fight the communist threat. They toppled left-leaning populists like Mossadeq, pushed Shiites towards radicalism, encouraged fanatical groups like Wahabbi's and Qutbi's which wanted to eliminate the Sufi philosophy. Today, the Sufi philosophy would seem to be a dream come true and moderate, liberal thinkers like Mossadeq and Bhutto would make ideal leaders for countries like Iran and Pakistan. I do believe though that the CIA is still funding radicalism. They don't want to kill the enemy off completely because it gives them good cause for a continued involvement in its spheres of influence.

They want to promote democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan. In Iraq, by having a wolf protect the sheep and in Afghanistan with its heroin mafia. They don't like the election results in Algeria or Palestine, so those democracies are not suitable. Neither is Iran because their democratic model is undemocratic. We already know of the business relationship between the Saud and Bush families. Pakistan has had one unpopular military dictator after another - all strong allies of the US.

The London bombings were directed against the British govt and its repressive foreign policy. Its unfortunate that ordinary people had to suffer the backlash - something there is no excuse for. But seriously, none of the allies in the great War on Terror are doing anything to address the root causes. Instead, they are using terrorism as an excuse for further imperial adventures. Non-issues like the sputterings of an idiotic unknown cleric are being international importance to create an Us vs. Them mentality. This irresponsibility on the part of some Western leaders and their muslim allies will create an even bigger problem that our children will have to solve.

I've been to the english county of Yorkshire (many years ago) and I did not find the english there to be oppressive. But their accents are another matter!!!

0 Replies

Tarnished Angel wrote:

Steve

For good Christians you need look no further than Albania, which produced Mother Teresa who did so much good in the slums of Calcutta (the former capital of the British Raj!).

I know of no 'major' Islamic group, radical or otherwise, that wants Saddam restored to power.

I think I've already made clear that the tenets of the Islamic faith and modern day radicalism are two entirely different things - as different as Matthew 5:39 (the bit about the other cheek!) and the crusades.

The US and British governments encouraged radicalism to fight the communist threat. They toppled left-leaning populists like Mossadeq, pushed Shiites towards radicalism, encouraged fanatical groups like Wahabbi's and Qutbi's which wanted to eliminate the Sufi philosophy. Today, the Sufi philosophy would seem to be a dream come true and moderate, liberal thinkers like Mossadeq and Bhutto would make ideal leaders for countries like Iran and Pakistan. I do believe though that the CIA is still funding radicalism. They don't want to kill the enemy off completely because it gives them good cause for a continued involvement in its spheres of influence.

They want to promote democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan. In Iraq, by having a wolf protect the sheep and in Afghanistan with its heroin mafia. They don't like the election results in Algeria or Palestine, so those democracies are not suitable. Neither is Iran because their democratic model is undemocratic. We already know of the business relationship between the Saud and Bush families. Pakistan has had one unpopular military dictator after another - all strong allies of the US.

The London bombings were directed against the British govt and its repressive foreign policy. Its unfortunate that ordinary people had to suffer the backlash - something there is no excuse for. But seriously, none of the allies in the great War on Terror are doing anything to address the root causes. Instead, they are using terrorism as an excuse for further imperial adventures. Non-issues like the sputterings of an idiotic unknown cleric are being international importance to create an Us vs. Them mentality. This irresponsibility on the part of some Western leaders and their muslim allies will create an even bigger problem that our children will have to solve.

I've been to the english county of Yorkshire (many years ago) and I did not find the english there to be oppressive. But their accents are another matter!!!

Whilst I might agree there is a dirty game of skulduggery going on....and at its root is the control of oil...that does not negate the fact that radical islamists are grooming "thousands" of disaffected young people in this country, and doing so in the name of Islam. You say they are not "proper" Muslims that only your tradition, which I take to be Sufi, is true Islam. Well I think they might disagree with you on that. Cant you see how easy it is for an outsider to say "a plague on all your religious houses"?

No matter how the wahhabists exploit religion to make war and no matter how western powers have exploited the wahhabists for their own ends, that does not make Islam any more attractive to me.

Hingehead I think you should keep your head closed, part of your brain seems to have fallen out. Laughing

0 Replies

Quote:

radical islamists are grooming "thousands" of disaffected young people

The most notorious of islamists is the head of Al-Qaeda - Osama Bin Laden. Lets take him as an example. He is guilty of the planning and execution of the 9/11 attacks. So far I have heard Western leaders speaking of how there is no reasoning with terrorists. They are against western values etc., a never-ending mantra I'm sick of hearing. Not once have I heard them to acknowledge the reasons he has explicitly stated for his terrorist campaigns - the US military presence in Arabia. If you look at newspapers circa 1991, you'll notice that there was widespread anger in the muslim world at the idea of the US setting up bases in the muslim holy land. At that time, the Arab prince Sheikh Osama told the Saudi govt., let me fight Saddam. Don't let the US in because they will never leave.

The official western response at that time was that they are only going to topple the dictator Saddam and don't intend to remain permanently. A decade later they were still there. Not even the 9/11 carnage was enough to make them acknowledge this issue, let alone leave. As far as Osama or other radical Arabs are concerned, they are fighting a much stronger enemy - fighting for their freedom and homeland. They are the proverbial 'Spanish prisoners'. Certainly Osama and his followers are sick people for planning a horrendous act that targeted innocent civilians. But I think Western strategists are just as sick for continuing with their deceit and lies.

I am not Sufi and I'm not saying that is the proper Islam. There is no proper Islam. Sufiism is one of many different strains of thought as there are many paths that lead to God. I found it beautiful that it concentrated on music and dance to reach God. This particular strain of thought has suffered considerably in Central Asia with the rise of Wahabbism and Qutbism - the fanatical philosophies necessary to prepare warriors for death against the evil USSR. Its not for me to say that Wahabbism is right or wrong. There can be ultra-conservative factions in any religion - that shouldn't make the entire faith dangerous or sick. But the fact that droves of educated, young muslims are leaning towards the ultra-conservative strain only proves that our youth are:

1- politically conscious of Western repression
2- alienated from the 'white man' even while living in his midst
3- extremely naive and impressionable in thinking that force is the solution to the problem

0 Replies

Muslim Cleric's remarks....

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know