Muslim Cleric's remarks....

Steve

You've obviously made up your made about me but in my defense let me state:

When I said circa WW-1, it was because Irgun was an offshoot of the Haganah which was an offshoot of the Hashomer - established in 1909. There is no specific date like the US Declaration of Independence.

The Jewish Agency and British govt officially labelled the Irgun a terrorist organizations for its repeated assassinations and civilian attacks. Their most notorious attack (their 9/11) was the 1946 bombing of the King David Hotel which killed 91 people. If the Irgun was involved in assassinations or bombings, that does not make all Jews terrorists and neither is Judaism a sick, regressive faith. They responded to socio-political conditions of the time much as extremist muslims are doing today.

I'm not going to go into the semantics of the word Jihad, its history or quotations from the Quran. In the words of one of the leading scholars on faith, the prolific British writer Karen Armstrong:

"Fighting and warfare might sometimes be necessary, but it was only a minor part of the whole jihad or struggle."

What you've read on the BBC is very unfortunate and I wish it wasn't true although I'm certain it it. This madness has to stop and military strikes, media warfare, the threat of sanctions and propaganda aren't going to do. They will only repress the problem and turn it into something much more ugly. The root causes really do need to be addressed and frankly I don't see any sign on the horizon that they will. When you have fanatic mad-men like Bush, Osama, Ahmedinejad and Blair pitted against other, the result can only be a disaster that will leave deep scars.

I don't support a Caliphate but I do admire the muslim concept of a universal brotherhood (which should eventually include all faiths).

Shariah "law" was very superior for its time - 1400 years ago. It obviously has to evolve with time while maintaining the basic spirit of justice. I admire many things in British and American law which capture the spirit of Sharia; namely, the law of torts, freedom of speech and the rights of man. They are not ideal laws for all times and eras and will obviously have to continue to evolve for them to retain my respect.

I confess I don't know much about the "Hizb ul Tahrir" but as a general rule I support parties and movements that focus on progressive tax regimes, freedom of speech, nuclear disarmament and mostly importantly the environment. I don't see myself becoming a "card carrying" member of the Hizb-ul-Tahrir anytime soon....

By the way, my user name is not intended to be pretentious. I'm a fan of film-noir and its a reference to that which fellow film-buffs would enjoy. I only joined Able2Know for the film boards but they're kind of boring and I wandered off!!!

Glad you wandered into this bit of A2K TA.

Indeed.

Fascinating posts.

Yes, you have put a very human 'face' to the 'average' Muslim (whatever that may be). It is much easier to see contentious issues in stark black or white without stopping to think of the infinite shades of grey in between.

No I haven't. I know nothing about you except from one or two posts. I hold no beef with Christians Jews or Muslims...believe it or not one or two are actually friends of mine. But I do have a problem with monotheism in its various guises. In particular I have a problem with political islamists who are exploiting religious ideas of martyrdom to use as a weapon against western society.

There is a very dirty game going on here. 'We' encouraged trained financed and supplied the Afghan Mujahadeen in their fight against the Russians. They believed Allah helped them to destroy the atheists and now will help Islamists to destroy the Great Satan. Its what the professionals call blow back.

But the west and the USA in particular needs an 'enemy' in the absence of nazism and communism to disguise what it is really interested in doing - securing oil resources world wide.

Steve

Like my hero, Martin Luther King "I have a dream" that we can be friends despite our differences. The Reverend's Christian faith gave him the strength and patience to raise a voice against segregation through his non-violent movement. There are innumerable examples of great people of the cloth who have inspired mankind to become better. I know of many examples from Islamic history as well.

Monotheism is great - it teaches morality, reward and punishment and a whole host of other 'basic concepts' that define mankind. Religious ideas of martyrdom are not preached by any religion and it is kind of ironic that of them all, Islam spoke against suicide in the strongest terms yet its modern-day saviours have twisted it beyond belief!

There is indeed a dirty game going on and the real facts behind the media spin may not be known for a couple of decades. However, it is my belief that clandestine support is still being given to radical Islamic organizations by the CIA and and its allies. Jihadis (modern distorted meaning!) are the tool through which to create instability and maintain control. The situation gets particularly complex when you also have radical organizations being undermined by the CIA (Taliban, Iran etc). Like I said, I believe in the environmentally focused political groups. Oil is a curse that leads not only to the destruction of this beautiful and much abused planet Earth, it is the real cause for the radicalisation of Islam and the media war to reinforce this Us vs. Them attitude. Do remember that when the USSR invaded Afghanistan, the CIA approached the Saudi govt and asked for a Prince to lead the islamic armies and set an example dating back to the time of the Prophet. When no one volunteered, the CIA found a prince from the Bin Laden family. The rest, as they say, is history!

That was an iteresting post thanks.

Oil is indeed a curse and a blessing. It is vital for our economies and supports our high standard of living. It supports the dollar as the world reserve currency. However it has its own problems

- the easy oil is gone
- the new oil around the Caspian tends to be land locked
- we take the stuff forgranted and are dependent on it...addicted in the words of Bush
- profligate burning of the stuff over the last 100 years is screwing the earth's climate.
- China and India are industrialising fast and want their share of whats left.

if we can agree about some of these things, we can leave the relatively trivial matter about the nature of God on the back burner

Hi Steve - sort of disagreeing with this point, well clarifying it really. I think oil is vital for the continued wealth of certain vested interests - I don't believe it's essential for our standard of living (in monetary or environmental terms). It's much more of a curse than a blessing. And it the short sightedness of our leaders in addressing the fact that oil will run out eventually saddens me.

Spain just passed a law that means every new house must have solar panels installed. In Australia our government poo-poos solar power (even though they are finally going to build small generation plant) largely because our PM is in bed with the nuclear power lobby.

I believe that if you divide the world into two groups, one which is people who have power in economic or political spheres and the other for the rest then the percentage of 'good' people in the latter far surpasses the percentage in the former.

It behooves us to call our leaders to account. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance - beware the current us vs them, divide and conquer crap that's going on.

To bring this back to the original thread I firmly believe that, in Australia at least, the demonising of our islamic brethren is a political sideshow to distract the general populace from the massive failings of our government. It worked for them in 2001 - google Tampa and Children Overboard.

Guys & Dolls

Its me again! Now that we've moved on from discussing petty and offensive remarks that no one will remember on 18 November 2007 to discussing something serious that will affect our children - oil - I'd like to add my "grey" views.

In the city of Tehran, Iran there are just over 2 million cars. Over half of them are more than 20 years old, and each and every one proudly runs on fully leaded fuel.

Many Americans close to retirement age dream of owning their own home, an investment that runs the kitchen and pays the bills and a gas-guzzling TRUCK! I think the Cadillac, Ford and Buick are all beautiful cars those engineering specs were obviously not designed by a member of the Green Party.

From their perspective, China and India are well within their right to consume as much fuel as "necessary" in order to advance economically. If the West could do it to grow, and continues to do it, why shouldn't they? Of course, they don't realise that apart from inheriting the mantle of Global Superpower, they will also be handling the responsibilities.

Oil is not really vital. It is necessary but it has been made vital. What effort are the major urban centers of the world making to create mass transit systems? Why are trees being chopped down to build more super highways? Does anyone want examples because I have dozens!!! There are fires every summer that burn trees all over the world. Does anyone know what effect that is having on the environment and what are people doing about it?

Mark my words, we will curse ourselves one day. Our hubris will destroy us! My God, it makes my blood boil to see this....was Man really made in the

Guys & Dolls

Its me again! Now that we've moved on from discussing petty and offensive remarks that no one will remember on 18 November 2007 to discussing something serious that will affect our children - oil - I'd like to add my "grey" views.

In the city of Tehran, Iran there are just over 2 million cars. Over half of them are more than 20 years old, and each and every one proudly runs on fully unleaded fuel. Do you know the difference between leaded and unleaded? Land at Mehrabad Airport and the first thing you will feel are the fumes in the air.

Many Americans close to retirement age dream of owning their own home, an investment that runs the kitchen and pays the bills and a gas-guzzling TRUCK! I think the Cadillac, Ford and Buick are all beautiful cars whose engineering specs were obviously not designed by a member of the Green Party.

From their perspective, China and India are well within their right to consume as much fuel as "necessary" in order to advance economically. If the West could do it to advance, and continues to do it, why shouldn't they? Of course, they don't realise that apart from inheriting the mantle of Global Superpower, they will also be handling the responsibilities.

Oil is not really vital. Yeah, it is necessary, but it has been made vital. What effort are the major urban centers of the world making to create mass transit systems? Why are trees being chopped down to build more super highways? Does anyone want examples because I have dozens!!! There are fires every summer that burn trees all over the world. Does anyone know what effect that is having on the environment and what are people doing about it?

Mark my words, we will curse ourselves one day. Our hubris will destroy us! My God, it makes my blood boil to see this....was Man really made in the image of God?

no God was made in the imagination of Man.

Poor little man. I pity you.

i think he's very smart. He can see through the bullshit

The viewer reaction to the interview with that grub on 60 minutes was quite interesting. 99% of the letters stated he's an asshole. Looks like Australia is finally waking up to the danger posed by these animals.

I'm average height. Not absolutely poor, but if you want to send a donation it would be gratefully received. IF someone can live a moral existance without a God to keep them on the straight and narrow, why is this a pitiful?

god knows










:wink:

Ha. I don't really give a rat's about what people who watch 60 minutes think - the show is crap and tawdrey. In addition putting weight to the letters segment at the end (how many do they read? Ten tops?) and they pick the letters? Give me a break.

The mufti is a tosspot (well at least, he is politically naive-what a surprise - he's a religious figure not a political one) but I'm pretty sick of people making generalizations that all adherents to islamic faith are 'animals'.

Wilso you should take a good look at your shitlist - remember you also dislike intensely 'all' Australian women so decided to go for a Thai wife. Now muslims are on your list. Stop generalising. No group is homogenous. Who's next? Probably uberlefties like myself. Why aren't you throwing rocks at every catholic - for christ sake their priests have been buggering our sons for decades...

Feel the love dude.

My comment had nothing to do with your religious beliefs. If God exists, you will know it soon enough - if He doesn't, well it just wont matter will it? Plenty of atheists have more 'christian' outlooks than many Christians. Similarly, some atheists are worse religious bigots than many bible-bashers.

Nor, as you know full well, did it have anything to do with your physical size or financial status.

What I find pitiful, small and poverty stricken is the spirit of humanity you show towards Tarnished Angel's honest attempts to discuss the situation.

Thanks, hinge - you took the words right out of my mouth!

You're an uberlefty?

I thought I was, at least in the eyes of people I consider right leaning/conservative.

I realised the other day that I don't think I can bring myself to give Labour my first preference in the fed election and that I'd definitely vote green or indy (of course I doubt there will a green candidate here) and I thought I must be an uberlefty.

I'm open to other opinions about my leftiness - not too proud to admit I could be wrong - what do you think?