Muslim Cleric's remarks....

Great discussion.....I will follow the link after work...thanks Hinge!

El-Hilali Offers a Solution to the Problem and Requests
the Convening of an Ethical Trial for his Comments

In the Name of Allah the Most Beneficent the Most Merciful

I have opted to keep silent during the last few days, enduring psychological pressures, media punches, political daggers and missiles which have been orchestrated by a viciously plotted media campaign - the first few webs of which have been weaved by an Islamic group considered to be outcasts and rejected by the consensus of Muslims in and out of Australia.

Those who have felt angry and expressed their anger by participating in this savage attack are excused for doing so.

I consider that the Australian media and some politicians have fallen victims to this misleading misguided plot.

I think that all these punches, stabs and daggers which have been directed at me are quite enough; and I have endured all of this in anticipation of Allah's reward.

It is now my turn; not to respond or defend myself but to reveal the truth so that all our Australian people and the people of the whole world would come to know that what lurks behind the screen is a cheap political exploitation, and a dubious plot - the aims and objectives of which are very well known.

I stress, categorically, that any person - whatever his position may be - who justifies the crime of rape or encourages it under any circumstances, or whoever degrades Australian women for their dress, is nothing but an ignorant, foolish and crazy person who does not deserve to hold any position of responsibility, be it public or private in our Australian society.

Therefore, I request that a legal or ethical court be formed out of:

A qualified judge
Two impartial lawyers
Two accredited interpreters
This court is to be given the role of listening to the recording of the lesson that was given inside the Lakemba mosque on the evening of 27/09/2006. Impartiality and neutrality should be observed.

If this court proves that this recording confirms that I am guilty of giving justification for the crime of rape, that I have given incitement for the crime of rape, that I have claimed that any woman without the veil deserves to be raped or that she is the one responsible for its occurrence, or that the metaphor that I have used is a general description that includes all Australian women, then I will impose the following steps on myself:

Retire from all religious work and positions
Place a masking tape on my mouth in public places for a period of 6 months, to discipline this mouth for uttering these words
Commit myself to public service duties (600 hours in any women's organisation which provides social services to Australian women)
If, on the other hand, these claims prove to be void, I will still make a decision that will serve democracy and enhance the path of co-existence and harmony between the Muslim community and its Australian society away from extremism and racial fanaticism.

I request that quick measures be taken to form this court as soon as possible by any official women's organisation in charge of such matters, for example: the Australian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission (Sex Discrimination).

With my deepest respect,

Issued by
Sheikh Taj El-Deen El-Hilali
Mufti of Australia
02/11/2006

I think this ends the discussion.....

Why would you think that?

What concerns me greatly is the fact that this sermon was made in September, but it didn't recieve any publicity until someone translated it into English more than a month later. That suggests to me that any apparent "outrage" in the muslim community is yet another smokescreen. They had a month to call this guy to task, but instead said NOTHING. After a lifetime of tolerance, now at the age of 41, I don't trust moslems. I'm not prepared to tolerate them anymore. I don't care if I'm declared racist. If they're not prepared to accept Australian values, then they should be shipped back to the third world shitholes that spewed them out.

Excuse me but the man has apologized for what he said or what he implied.....what more do you want? When I heard what it I was just as enraged as the next person but come on, give it a rest! As for wanting Moslems to go back to where they came from, where do you come from? Why were your ancestors shipped to Australia?

Its similar to the Danish cartoon controversy. The imans (who were given sanctuary in Denmark) took months to stir up the pandemonium. They said it was Danish government inspired. They deliberately added material which they knew Muslims would find offensive but which actually had nothing to do with Islam or Mohammed, then a Pakistani business man offered $1m to kill the cartoonist...(where did that come from?) Christians/Europeans/Danish people were intimidated around the world...and some killed in Nigeria

AND THE WHOLE THING WAS TOTALLY CONTRIVED STIRRED UP BY A FEW ISLAMISTS WHO ENJOY NOTHING MORE THAN MAYHEM. So zainabfaraaj when you ask what more we want, perhaps a promise that you and your fellow Muslims will behave better in future.

I want religion GONE. I don't know why my ancestors were shipped here. But for the past five generations, my family was born here. I don't have to answer for my beliefs to religious lunatics who came here to enjoy the benefits of the wonderful nation built my ancestors, and do nothing but try to tear down what has been created.

It's muslims Wilso, and you're not a racist, you're a bigot.

I'm not trying to g you up or anything, and I don't really want to have this argument but, you need to chill down a little.

I cannot promise anything on behalf of millions of other Muslims similarly Hilaly,when he made those comments, was not speaking for all the Muslims living in Australia! Imams do not have to be obeyed, they are there for guidance only. People go to them by their own choice and ALOT of Muslims don't go to them at all.

Maybe so. But it won't "g me up" because if I have to wear the tag of a bigot now, I'm quite happy to do so. For most of my life, I was the most tolerant person on earth. But my patience has worn out. So if a bigot I must be, so be it.

Opinion polls suggest that 100,000 Muslims in Britian approve of the London Tube attack last year. MI5 and the security services are actively monitoring "at least" 30 terrorist plots targetting Britain and elsewhere from UK based Islamists. 1600 people are actively engaged in planning attacks. British youth at schools universities and mosques are being groomed for suicide bomb operations. Plots involve chemical biological radiological materials, possibly nuclear technology. Why? Because they have been radicalised by religion. Because the Islamists are exploiting vulnerable young people, brainwashing them in madrassas in Pakistan, doing the same in 'faith schools' in Bradford, and channelling that anger at Britain and western targets to do the bidding of Al Qaida.

Does this sound like the rantings of a bigotted Islamophobe? No its the considered opinion of Dame Eliza Manningham-Buller, head of MI5.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,1944351,00.html


Like Wilso, I have been tolerant of other peoples sincerely held beliefs. If someone wants to believe Adam was 60 cubits tall, that the devil lives up peoples noses, the world is 6000 years old and that Noah lived nearly 1000 years, then I thought it barmy but left them alone.

But its gone beyond that. Young people are promised instant paradise if they bomb London Underground. They are brainwashed into thinking they are doing the will of Allah by committing acts of murder and mayhem.

We, the western powers are not at war with Islam. But the Islamists are using religion to wage war against us. They are waging it simultaneously at all levels, from killing soldiers in Afghanistan to enforcing veil wearing in Basra to stirring up trouble in a school in Dewsbury. (Where a teaching assistant at a Church of England school demanded that her wearing a full veil whilst teaching be respected. I dont know who dreamed that up but its a good one - if she succeeds in wearing it it sets a precedent and a victory for Islam...if she is barred from wearing it its gross prejudice and insensitivity shown towards the muslims...and a victory for the Islamists)

Democracy under attack or Islam under attack?
The recent comments made by Sheikh Hilaly of Sydney were shameful, but the controversy and idiotic remarks resulting from it are even more shameful! It is very unfortunate to read the remarks of people claiming that they were never bigoted but "enough is enough". Illiterate pontifications that women of loose morals are raped, Aids is a punishment from God, women have no right to abortion are not exclusive to the Islamic religion. Such remarks have been made by the Christian priest, the Jewish rabbi, the Hindu pundit and of course, by Muslim clerics. Such comments are not the sick ruminations of one sole religion, or a desert-based religion, but of all faiths that preach tolerance and humanity but eventually decay and become rigid and intolerant.

In fact, a brief look at history shows that Islam has been tolerant for a far greater spell than the Anglo-Celtics, the Holy Romans, the Roman Empire or the Greeks. It is well documented that the Greeks could tolerate no gods but their own, and destroyed the temples of earlier pagan and animist religions (of which no trace is left) to create their religious hierarchy. When their empire came to an end, the rising Romans systematically destroyed their temples and built admittedly magnificent temples atop the ruins of the Greek places of worship. If you ever visit any good museum in France, Italy, Turkey or Greece look closely at the busts of Roman gods e.g. Augustus Caesar. Invariably you will find smashed noses and the mark of crucifix on the forehead. When the Roman Empire declined, the previously persecuted Christians diligently set about Christianizing their empire, including inanimate objects like statues and temples. The magnificent Pantheon and Coliseum of Rome were systematically stripped of their marble and gold to build a true monument to the Christian God, the lovely St. Peter's Basilica. The Mongol Hordes of Halaku razed the Muslim capital of Baghdad and their pillage, rape and murder reached an extent that the Tigris and Euphrates ran red with the blood of the dead.

The muslims too saw their glory days. Christian temples built before the rise of Islam remained active places of Christian worship even under Mamluk or Ottoman rule. In fact, many magnificent Christians monuments such as the lovely St.Simeon were built much after the commencement of Islamic rule in Damascus. The frescoes of the magnificent Hagia Sophia of Constantinople are intact to this day. True to his threat, the Ottoman conqueror of Constantinople converted it into a mosque because the Christian opponent refused to surrender. However, Ottoman tolerance (at least in the initial two centuries) is undisputed. The great Muslim cities of Istanbul, Baghdad, Damascus and Cairo were all very cosmopolitan with traders and residents of all faith and persuasion - free to practice their faith without prejudice to the Islamic faith.

In fact, Islamic tolerance was not something unusual. It was a basic religious injunction and any act disrespecting the faiths of the desert-based religions was absolutely against the injunctions of their faith. There are several verses in the Quran which confirm this - most famously Surat Kafiroon. Of the Jews, Prophet Muhammad said "If Christians are your cousins in faith, Jews are your brothers in faith". This at a time when Christianity was actively persecuting the Jewish people. Doesn't sound like a very intolerant religion to me - at least by the admittedly uncivilized standards of that era. In the past 300-400 years as European civilization showed a meteoric rise, Islamic states declines. Till about 60 years ago, most Muslim countries were colonies of Great Britain, France, Italy etc. Naturally, the colonists were not as interested in "the white man's burden" as in their own prosperity. The scars of colonization and slavery take a long time to heal. In some cases, they never heal.

It is not a very well publicized fact but when the Spaniards and English first discovered the Americas, they did not in fact discover a vast wilderness waiting to be inhabited. The 16th century Native American tribes had their traditions, hierarchies, busy cities, aqueducts and yes, women had the right to vote - women's suffrage being belatedly accepted by Anglo-Celtics some 400 years later. Over the duration of the 16th Century it is estimated that 100-150 million Native Americas died as a direct result of European colonization - disease (chiefly small-pox); slavery; genocide; starvation. You name it, they suffered it. Till the 1960's many American hospitals used to give Native American children saline solution in place of essential vaccinations. Native American women were accidentally sterilized when they went to the hospital to deliver their first child. What was the result of this, the first genocide in history. The Native American has been reduced to 3% of its population and the thinking of many bigots about an "Indian Man" is "Kill the Indian and leave the man" through a systematic indoctrination campaign. History is always written by the victors. Didn't Adolf Hitler say that his Jewish solution should match the success of the American genocide?

The lesson learnt from the American, the Jewish and the Balkan genocides is that anything is possible through the process of de-humanization. The French colonist de-humanised the Algerian subject to the extent that when he asked for independence, 200 Algerians were killed by angry Parisian mobs in 1961 and thrown into the Seine. The English, whose superiority in British India was loudly proclaimed through prominent signs stating "No Dogs or Indians Allowed" only left its cherished possession because of its promise during WW-2. The US installed a puppet in Iran during WW-2. The people of Iran despised their Shah whose savagery is legendary. He was first toppled in 1953 because the Iranians yearned for democracy. The coup leader Mossadeq - a liberal, educated man who wanted a free, independent sovereign state was removed by the CIA because he threatened their oil interests. Their puppet of choice returned for a second and even more disastrous stint at the end of which, Iran was effectively a colony of the US. An Iranian committing a crime against an American could be tried in Iran and America. An American committing a crime against an Iranian could only be tried in America. Every time the US wanted to dump obsolete weaponry, their liberal Shah friend was there to buy it. While the useless weaponry purchased with petro-dollars was rotting in the desert, the Iranian populace was struggling to survive. Wasn't it inevitable that they would opt for a radical solution to this colonization?

We are seeing a new form of colonization today. 9/11 has been used as a justification to open bases in Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo and countless secret East European locations and illegally detain and torture suspected terrorists. It was used as a justification to conquer and occupy Iraq. Well organized Iraqi mobs destroyed over 52 ministries after the fall of Baghdad. The Allied forces only allowed two to remain - oil and internal security. Data collected over several decades was systematically destroyed - in fact priceless pottery over 7,000 years old was destroyed when the National History Museum of Baghdad was ransacked. There was not one US troop to stop the destruction while over 2,000 were twiddling their thumbs "protecting" the Kirkuk oilfield. A chapter of human history has been lost forever. But then that is a history that the largely Anglo-Celtic forces have no respect for.

They have no respect for Afghanistan either. It may have been a frontline state in the war against the evil communists. But when the USSR collapsed, so did American interest in that part of the world. A look at their spectacular achievements in Afghanistan is quite revealing. An ex-UNOCAL consultant is now the President of this democracy. After 5 years his bodyguard contingent is still solely American. Can this democratic leader not find one good Afghan to serve as his bodyguard? His brother, Ahmed Wali Karzai, apart from being a powerful Governor, is the focal point in the ever-expanding and lucrative Heroin trade. American bases in Afghanistan are situated along a strategic route - the proposed pipeline for Central Asian oil. No bases in the rest of the country!

America preaches democracy and uses it as a pretext for imposing sanctions. Yet, they encouraged the Algerian military to cancel elections when they did not like the results. Net result: over a decade of civil war. The more recent Hamas victory is another case in point. Henry Kissinger threatened to make a "horrible example" of Pakistani populist democrat Bhutto and more recently, sanctions were imposed on the democratic Nawaz Sharif government. All these sanctions evaporated during long periods of destructive military rule when Pakistan was seen as a key ally.

The recent and I suspect not the last controversy is just one more step in the process of escalating non-issues, irresponsible remarks and differences that should really be debated. It is all part of the de-humanization process of the Muslim world as backward and uncivilized. The repeated mantra is "there can be no negotiation with terrorists...these people want to destroy democracy" etc. The reasons for 9/11, the prime cause and Osama's end goal (however despicable the means) will never be discussed. The agenda remains one of de-humanization in order to colonise and achieve geo-strategic goals. Petty remarks by Sheikh Hilaly and the immediate huffing and puffing, the offensive Danish cartoons are all smokescreens for a more sinister right-wing agenda. Good people who want to live decent lives will suffer the consequences of these agendas of hatred.

Well written Tarnished Angel.......if only the Wilsos of this world were also a bit more educated, tolerant and aware of facts, not only Australia but the World would be a better place to live in!

I do not despise those who live good and decent lives.

Hilaly's remarks seem to suggest that some muslim men (and perhaps not only muslim men) cannot control themselves in a decent manner, and require women to do this controlling by the manner in which they dress.

Much of the reaction we see toward muslim culture is fear of the unknown. It was the same with the wave of Italian and Greek migration in the 50's and 60's. Much of the reaction from iraqi and iranin people is also fear of the unknown.
Can anyone blame Joe public for his negetive reaction when everyday we read in the media of bombings and other atrocities perported to be carried out in the name of islam?

Muslim people know there are radical elements within their ranks. Just as there are within any other religion. I believe we can all press for a moderation of tactics.

Tarnished Angel: you forgot to mention the atrocities carried out during the crusades by King Richard.

I am aware of the history of persecution carried out in the name of many religions. I am sure if I chose to look there would be evidence of persecution carried out in the name of islam.

I look forward not back, can you as well?

Dadpad

I would like to look forward as well. There are more serious issues at stake today - the environment and world poverty come immediately to mind.

I agree that there is much in the Islamic past that muslims should be ashamed of - I confess I would find it painful to give examples as glibly as I did for Anglo-Celtic misdeeds.

However, I can not accept any race appropriating to themselves all virtues of civilization and in the process de-humanizing other civilizations.

Islamic radicalism is a result of colonisation which continues to this day and has only become more vicious using 9/11 as an excuse. If western mistrust were restricted to hegemonic governments alone, it might be understandable. But negative feelings have rapidly entered into the minds of Joe Public through an incessant media war which muslims are ill-equipped to counter. The Danish cartoons are seen as a personal insult by most muslims because of raw feelings and tremendous insecurity. The exaggerated reaction to a stupid clerics remarks have done the same.

Isn't it sad that Osama Bin Laden is a hero for millions of muslims, all good people who would be miserable if god forbid his vision of an ideal state were to come to pass......

Joe Public needs to remember that Western backed sanctions on Iraq, used to block any attempt at acquiring WMD's resulted in the deaths of 500,000 civilisations as a lot of basic medicines were considered 'dual use'. How convenient to get up one day and say that the sanctions were ineffective, lets bomb the hell out of the Iraqis anyways. How do you expect the Iraqis to react when they don't quite perceive the West to be the liberators they so often proclaim themselves to be.

Tarnished angle, you have my respect.

Make no mistake, I will NEVER accept any religion as a driving force in my life. There have been too many crimes against humanity perpertrated by those who seek to gain, hold or regain power and wealth in its name.

Re: Democracy under attack or Islam under attack?
I havent got time to read all your post TA but would just ask you...do you seriously believe its only because Islam has gone wrong..."decayed"...that they are now running around trying to kill us? Islam

Varnished Tangle

of course we do bad things. We need their oil. But we are not at war with Islam. However, sure as hell the Islamists are at war with us, and they use religion to prosecute it. You really are very naive.