Muslim Cleric's remarks....

Here is a link to the story:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20656734-601,00.html

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I was wondering when someone would start a thread abou this -- being too lazy to do it myself.

I think a lot of muslims are outraged at his words and I think, if he was interpreted correctly, that they should keep the pressur on. If he was not interpreted correctly then he needs to be explicit about what he did say or mean. The idea that women are analogous to meat is absurd and disgusting and I'm glad it's not being tolerated by many muslims in Australia.

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Oh yeah, and welcome to A2K zainab.

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Varios commentary:

An excerpt (translated) of what he said:

Partsd of what he said

Some Oz Muslims' reactions:

Some Muslim groups dissatisfied with Lebanese Muslim Association's decision PRINT FRIENDLY EMAIL STORY
AM - Friday, 27 October , 2006 08:12:00
Reporter: Josie Taylor
TONY EASTLEY: Waleed Ali from the Islamic Council of Victoria says the Lebanese Muslim Association should have gone much further, given the gravity of Sheik Hilaly's comments.

Waleed Ali is speaking here with Josie Taylor.

WALEED ALI: We’ve requested firstly an apology to all of Australia and obviously to Australian Muslims as well, but more than that we’ve requested the immediate resignation of Hilaly.

That hasn’t been forthcoming and so obviously we disagree with the LMA have made.

It would seem to us that the comments were particularly inflammatory and it really caused a lot of pain to a lot of people and in those circumstances we would have thought that a resignation was an appropriate course of action.

JOSIE TAYLOR: Given the outrage that you say the comments have caused within the community what would the appropriate course of action been from the Lebanese Muslim Association?

They say they can’t strip him of his position but they do have the power to stop him preaching altogether at that mosque don’t they?

WALEED ALI: Yeah well, I think they made it absolutely clear that they had the power to do whatever they liked and that would have obviously included banning him from speaking at the Lakemba mosque.

So, yeah no question that they have the power to do that.

JOSIE TAYLOR: And should they have done that?

WALEED ALI: All I know is that from where we’re standing we felt that it was appropriate that he resign from the position of mufti of Australia, which is obviously not something that the LMA has control over, we would have liked to have seen some form of very strong censure given the magnitude and gravity of the comment.

TONY EASTLEY: Waleed Ali from the Islamic Council of Victoria speaking to Josie Taylor.

Sheikh Hilaly issues statement through spokesman PRINT FRIENDLY EMAIL STORY
The World Today - Friday, 27 October , 2006 12:14:00
Reporter: Sabra Lane
ELEANOR HALL: It now appears that Sheikh Hilaly won't be making any direct comment to the media today.

But just a short time ago he issued a statement through his spokesman, Keysar Trad.

Sabra Lane is at the Lakemba Mosque in South West Sydney and joins us on the line now

Sabra the Sheikh has been under huge pressure, did he change his position on the comments in this statement just read to you?

SABRA LANE: Yes, Keysar Trad who was speaking on behalf of Sheik Hilaly, he is, Keysar is the resident of the Islamic Friendship Council of Australia, says that the sheik has indeed apologised for his comments.

He says that he is absolutely distraught that people have taken it the wrong way. He says that the Sheikh intended these comments for a specific portion of his audience.

Friday prayers are underway right now. The Sheikh made an appearance about 10 minutes ago from a side door and entered the main entrance. But through Keysar Trad he issued the apology.

This is what Keysar Trad had to say earlier, just moments ago.

KEYSAR TRAD: Yes, but he will not be giving the sermon either today. We have a guest giving the sermon at the mosque and we have another guest giving the priest’s sermon talk so all the mufti will be doing is just welcoming the guest.

And he’ll be looking forward to his break.

SABRA LANE: The Lebanese Muslim Association said last night that he’d apologised for what he said but has he actually backed away from the comments that he made?

KEYSAR TRAD: Look these comments were never intended to be interpreted the way they were they were comments

SABRA LANE: But does he regret the comments themselves?

KEYSAR TRAD: Well naturally. Of course he does, otherwise he wouldn’t have issued an apology.

He regrets the comments, he regrets the ambiguity in the comments and however comments were intended to the older members of the community to encourage them to encourage their children to exercise modesty whether boys or girls and to exercise abstinence until they get married.

It’s a specific message to a specific audience that already understands that our religion condemns sexual violence in the strongest possible terms.

So for them to come through in the way they have been, particularly as he has been a staunch supporter of women’s rights throughout his life has been very hurtful to him and as a result now he’s just taken a break for a short while.

JOURNALIST: What about explaining his comments in any way?

KEYSAR TRAD: I don’t think so. I just spoke to him and he said he has to do his duty to welcome the guest, the senior imam and he just wants to take a break for the time being.

JOURNALIST TWO: So he’s not speaking today?

KEYSAR TRAD: No, no. Apart from welcoming the guest, which will take a minute or so, so he’s not going to...

JOURNALIST TWO: How long won’t he deliver sermons for?

KEYSAR TRAD: Well he’s taking a break. It’s not just an issue of delivering or not delivering, he’s taking a much-needed holiday because he’s working very, very hard for this community.

SABRA LANE: So it’s not a punishment?

KEYSAR TRAD: Well it’s a self-imposed holiday because he needs to take a break because he’s been working very hard.

SABRA LANE: You’re sure its not a...

KEYSAR TRAD: You can interpret that as you will. He’s taking a break from all this. He needs to reflect and gather his thoughts and take a spiritual retreat, which is really the time for it because we’re coming up to the month of pilgrimage.

ELEANOR HALL: And that’s Keysar Trad delivering or talking about that statement by Sheik Hilaly.

So Sabra, has the Sheikh said anything about when he will return to delivering sermons?

SABRA LANE: No he hasn’t. Keysar made it quite clear that he was going to take the pilgrimage next month. That this was a much-needed holiday and it was a self imposed holiday.

He specifically made it quite clear that the Lebanese Muslim Association had not defended the Sheikh from delivering sermons. He made it quite clear that the Sheikh was doing that through his own capacity.

There is some support for the Sheikh here today. I spoke to a couple of people who were coming to the mosque and they said that they were fully behind him and that they believed that the media had taken this out of context.

ELEANOR HALL: What is sense of it? What’s the sense of the controversy, is there a belief that the media’s beaten it up?

SABRA LANE: There is that sense. I spoke to one gentleman earlier. He said that there was a lot of support for the Sheikh and the feeling was in the community that they had picked up on one element of what the Sheikh had to say in his sermon last month during Ramadan.

ELEANOR HALL: And what’s been the response both in the crowd and indeed if there has been a response from Keysar Trad or from the Sheikh for the calls for him to be sacked?

SABRA LANE: Well, there was no response from Keysar here this morning. There is quite a media presence here outside the mosque here today. There are a couple of police standing here in uniform.

There is a band of media. Probably about 20 or 30 in presence. The media has been asked to stay away from the immediate entrance to the mosque so as not to impede the process of anyone turning up to prayers here today.

Certainly from Keysar there was no response, not that it was specifically put about him, calls for him to be sacked. He said that there was certainly support within the association for him to continue.

ELEANOR HALL: Sabra Lane at the Lakemba Mosque in southwest Sydney thankyou.

Community leaders condemn comments

Another translation

Minister says Sheikh's remarks enforce rape falsehoods

The federal Communications Minister, Helen Coonan, says a Muslim cleric's comments referring to women as "meat" gives rapists an excuse for their crimes, when there is no excuse for rape.

During a sermon in Sydney last month, Sheikh Taj el-Din Al Hilaly likened scantily dressed women to uncovered meat and blamed them for inciting sexual attacks.

Senator Coonan says while the Sheikh has apologised, she is concerned about the damage the comments have already caused.

"There is never an excuse to attack a woman under any circumstances," she said.

"What concerns me most of all is that decent Muslim people, and there are very, very many of them, would also be very upset about these comments and their having a tough enough time as it is.

Senator Coonan says the Sheik's comments are disgusting.

"I think its entirely unacceptable," she said.

"I think the really regrettable thing about those comments are that it ruthlessly enforces the attitudes or potential attitudes of young people that its alright to regard women as objects and to think that there's some excuse for rape."
Sheikh won't quit

Earlier today Sheikh Hilaly indicated he would not step down.

He attended the midday prayer service at Lakemba Mosque and spoke very briefly in Arabic about the controversy.

Sheikh Hilaly will not give sermons for the next two to three months after deciding to take a break.

But asked whether he would resign he replied, "after they clean the world from the White House first".

The Lebanese Muslim Association says the Sheikh has apologised unreservedly for the comments, and maintains they have been taken out of context.

(He seems NOT to have apologised unreservedly at all)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200610/s1775609.htm

Sermons "put on hold"

Muslim Association reviews association

"I won't quit"

"He was only quoting a scholar just like the Pope was"

Ditto

MUslims set to dump Hilaly?

Sigh.

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Wow, his actual words were even more repulsive than the news stories' selections. It's actually worse in context. Horrendous. I hope they oust him.

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FreeDuck wrote:

Wow, his actual words were even more repulsive than the news stories' selections. It's actually worse in context. Horrendous. I hope they oust him.

The "Judge who gives you 65 years" refers to sentences inposed on a group of Lebanese/Australian men who targeted and raped a number of young Anglo women.

Mind you, I am pretty cynical after all these years...(including working in a rape service, and with crims) the sermon WAS disgusting, but I think he summed up the views of a not tiny minority of non fundamentalist Muslim and general population people in Oz (and I would guess in many other countries, too) and also reflects the views of the desert monotheistic religions as a whole re women being to blame for all sexual problems up to and including rape.

He expressed it in an a grossly extreme way, but it surely is still there.

And not just in men.

Anyhoo, I hope very much that this turns out to be an open and cleansing debate, not just re Muslim/non Muslim relations, but on the topic generally.

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No comment from me.

Quote:

After midday prayers today, the sheik was besieged by a group of reporters who asked him whether he would bow to demands and quit.

The Islamic clergyman smiled and shook his head, saying in English: "After we clean the world of the White House first."

source

more news.

Stolen chemicals have rural use: expert
Ammonium nitrate stolen from a train could be used to make bombs but is more likely to have been taken for use in rural industry, a security expert says.

Police say 400kg of the chemical was stolen from a locked container, perhaps by a gang, while the train was stopped at a siding near Newcastle three weeks ago.

Ammonium nitrate was one of the main ingredients used in the Bali and Oklahoma City bombings. It is only explosive if mixed with certain other chemicals.

SMH

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His explanation.

WHAT Taj Din al-Hilaly told his flock at Sydney's Lakemba Mosque yesterday:

We offer peace and blessings and we pray to the son of divine guidance and the messenger of the divine providence and to God's mercy onto humanity, our master Mohammed, and to his pure family and companions ...I can't find more truthful words, and more eloquent of recounts, except in the words of the most truthful speakers and wisest of judges (the Koran): "Vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their chests conceal is greater still.

"Indeed, we have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand.

"Lo, you are they who will love them while they do not love you, and you believe in the book (in) the whole of it.

"And when they meet you they say: We believe, and when they are alone, they bite the ends of their fingers in rage against you. Say (to the snakes, the scum, the defiled and the filthy): Die in your rage."

Crowd: Allah Akbar! Allah Akbar!

Hilaly: Surely God knows what is in the chests.

On the fourth of the month of Ramadan, while we were in this blessed mosque, and after the nightly prayer, the sheik read from the Sura of al-Maida, and I was commenting on the verse, "The man thief and the woman thief, cut off the hands of both..."

God put forward man before woman in theft and woman before man in adultery. And then I started to present the seductive means, and how the man should control his urges.

I am guiding my daughters, my women. I call for chastity. And if this country is going to forbid us from protecting our honour, and preserve our dignity, I preserve my honour with money that I do not spend, may God not bless money after the honour is lost.

Australia is a multicultural society. Whoever wants to, let them take their clothes off. Whoever wants to go naked, let them go naked. Whoever wants to get drunk, let them get drunk. Whoever wants to smoke hashish, let them smoke hashish.

It's a free country; it's none of our business. But it is our right to tell our women the text of the verse 59 of the Sura of al-Nour (The Light) ... of the Sura of al-Ahzab (The Clans).

Verse 59 of the Sura of al-Ahzab: "Oh, Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble." This is the word of God.

Some of our women who are Westernised say that the religious hijab does not accord respect. The religious hijab, they say, does not increase respect for the woman or protect her.

We order the wearing of the religious hijab that God has ordered us to wear. There is nothing to this ... when we condemn debauchery, shamelessness ...

The Australian Bureau of Statistics says that every six minutes in Australia there is an assault against a male minor or female minor. This is rape, and it is present in the Western societies. We are fighting this rape. We are fighting this.

We want to protect the honour of all the people. And we do not encourage our sons to rape. A Muslim man is ordered to refrain from looking. Rape, to us, is a crime worse than adultery. It borders on murder.

We have said it and declared it 100,000 times, that Islam is against rape. Islam does not instruct to rape. Islam prohibits rape. In Islam, the crime of rape borders on the crime of murder.

And still, those who are sick in the heart ... only when the cow is brought down on the ground, you see a lot of knives ...

Everybody is issuing a statement to look good in the eyes of the Government.

I say: By God, if they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left hand ... the sun, the moon, Australia, America and the Western world, in order to give up the principle of the Islamic, moderate, Koranic calling, then I swear to God that I will remain all by myself until God makes me a martyr!

Crowd: Allah Akbar! Allah Akbar!

Hilaly: It's not about cowardice. I order according to my Koran. And I adhere to the principles of my Koran. And I know that this is a democratic society, and it allows me to speak the word of truth. I don't care ...

It's not about that. We are building the Australian society. And when we order chastity, when we preserve our honour, when we preserve our daughters, it doesn't mean that we are fanatics and extremists ... and we describe the woman as so and so, as meat ... We were comparing.

When you leave a piece of meat in the yard without supervision, when you put a piece of meat on the footpath, the voracious wolves will snap at it. That is our comparison. We're not saying that every naked woman should be snapped at, no.

I will say it briefly and very clearly. As one would say, first of all: Let me clearly state for the record, for the history, that rape in our religion, in our Islamic law, Islamic sharia, is considered a crime whose punishment is execution. The punishment for rape is execution in Islam.

Its punishment is not only to whip the man. So, my dear beloved, we are a nation that God empowered with this religion. And if we seek empowerment in another religion, God will humiliate us.

I know this was concocted three weeks ago. They met. Someone took the tape. Someone translated it, and gave it to The Australian newspaper, and then on to the diplomats to the politicians.

And the aim is ... I say: My name is Taj, my job is a sheik, my tools are my turban, and I am a servant serving the religion of God. I pray to God ... and I will die attesting to the religion of God. I don't belong to any establishment or to any government. And whoever wants to terminate my wages, let them terminate it.

God bless you.

We have with us on this blessed day my friend Abdul Jalil Sajid, the mufti of London and the noted scholar. We thank him, and I am sorry that you came here at a difficult time to find this problem in Australia. But it is a storm in a cup. We say, "no worries, mate", in Australian.

We also have with us the noted Sheik Abdul Ghaffar al-Zoabi, God preserve him. We wanted to have him here since the last week of Ramadan, but the lack of time and my circumstances and his did not allow it.

We will hear the speech of Sheik Abdul Ghaffar today, and we tell them: Our banners will remain raised high, God willing. And our voices will remain heard. And may the world vanish if it doesn't listen to "there is no God but Allah'.

Crowd: Allah Akbar! Allah Akbar!

And...adding on al Jazeera reports on the matter:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A3E129BF-80D0-4966-AF26-09682E50B810.htm

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/3E5D4283-AAD5-4FC9-B2C8-CCAC4D1353C5.htm

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from dlowans post above

Quote:

A Muslim man is ordered to refrain from looking.

why? does a man need orders to refrain from looking. Will looking at a piece of uncovered meat incite him to eat if he is hungry. What if the owner of the meat does not wish him to eat, will he take the meat by force and sate his hunger?

Perhaps it was so in the past. It is not so now.

Men are not cats or basic animals governed by instinct alone. Men are respecters of the rights of others in our society.

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dadpad wrote:

from dlowans post above

Quote:
A Muslim man is ordered to refrain from looking.

why? does a man need orders to refrain from looking. Will looking at a piece of uncovered meat incite him to eat if he is hungry. What if the owner of the meat does not wish him to eat, will he take the meat by force and sate his hunger?

Perhaps it was so in the past. It is not so now.

Men are not cats or basic animals governed by instinct alone. Men are respecters of the rights of others in our society.

Hmmmmm...that is a fine ideal...about PEOPLE.

But your point is the source of a great deal of rather bitter ironical pondering for me.

These fundamentalists of the religions which share the bible (and others, for all I know) and push male supremacy and the idea of females as the spiritually lesser roots of evil, in fact have a view of males which ought logically to lead them to exclude men from all areas of life which involve responsibility, since their view is that male self control is so nonexistent that a mere whiff of femaleness causes them to commit all manner of vile acts!

This logic, which is so apparent to me, clearly does not occur to them.

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Go back to when man was a more instinctive animal. Procreation and genetic mixing are prime directives. sex is a basic instincts.
as society has developed different rules apply for different societies depending on their particular environmental influences. spreading genes is still a prime directive.
We in the western and developed nations have moved from a "might is right" (Those who have the power took what they wanted) to a "right is might" society.

It is likely to take several generations to educate the entire population of the values and need to supress this prime directive to procreate or perish. Perhaps supression can never be done (as an evolutionary emergency measure).
If for example there were some kind of holocost and most people were killed would the populate and spread the genes of the biggest, fastest, strongest be of value?
The best analogy I can liken it to is the maternal instinct in women.
When we look at some muslim societies we see that they are not so far removed from the type of society where "might is right" and "biggest fastest strongest" wins were usefull tools for those particular societies to survive.

It is not so long ago that our own thinking was the same. (Rape within marriage was acceptable and women shouldnt flaunt it.)

It is outcries such as this that have a marked effect rather than the YOU WILL CHANGE approach.

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dadpad wrote:

Ammonium nitrate was one of the main ingredients used in the Bali and Oklahoma City bombings. It is only explosive if mixed with certain other chemicals.

This is simply not true. The effect can be enhanced, but ammonium nitrate is an explosive all by itself, though not particularly sensitive.

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dlowan wrote:

.......(those who)......... push male supremacy and the idea of females as the spiritually lesser roots of evil, in fact have a view of males which ought logically to lead them to exclude men from all areas of life which involve responsibility, since their view is that male self control is so nonexistent that a mere whiff of femaleness causes them to commit all manner of vile acts!

This logic, which is so apparent to me, clearly does not occur to them.

I have argued this very thing for many years. No doubt that makes me one of Satan's tools.

(In all the rubbish about women being the tools of the devil, designed to tempt and destroy man, is any thought given to the women whose lives have been destroyed because they were seduced by a man?)

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dlowan wrote:

Mind you, I am pretty cynical after all these years...(including working in a rape service, and with crims) the sermon WAS disgusting, but I think he summed up the views of a not tiny minority of non fundamentalist Muslim and general population people in Oz (and I would guess in many other countries, too) and also reflects the views of the desert monotheistic religions as a whole re women being to blame for all sexual problems up to and including rape.

Indeed. It wasn't that long ago that we were debating whether women in miniskirts deserved to be raped -- in this country.

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Howard is saying that unless Al Hilali resigns the reputation of muslims in Australia will be irreparably damaged. Tosser.

I think this incident has actually improved Australian society's insight into our muslim citizen's lives. That there is vigorous debate on this issue within that community is heartening and may allay xenophobic fears about muslims being a monolithic lump alienness.

And as Deb mentioned. There are plenty of folks in the wasp camp who would echo the Imam's thoughts on the meat matter. I would call them tossers, but mostly I would just roll my eyes and walk away. However if a judge expressed those views I would be asking for his/her resignation. A religious leader is closer to a judge than to my hopelessly fogified great aunt.

I don't think the govt has a right to call for his resignation/sacking just let the islamic church deal with it in consultation its community - external pressure just gives him the whiff of martyr.

Regardless everything Al Hilali says now will be coloured by the knowledge of his reactionary opinion on women's clothing and belief in the bestiality of men. Did you know he has three daughters, all in professional positions in Oz society? Maybe he's just a paranoid father.

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From http://www.abc.net.au/

Quote:

Ambulance rushes to ill Sheikh's office

Controversial Sydney Muslim cleric Sheikh Taj El-Din Al Hilaly has taken ill at the Lakemba Mosque in Sydney's south-west.

An ambulance was called to the Mosque at 1:00pm AEDT [30 OCT] when Sheikh Hilaly was meant to be meeting with the president of the Lebanese Muslim Association (LMA) to discuss his future.

There has been outrage in the wider community over the Sheikh's reference to some women as uncovered meat in a recent speech.

Ambulance officers were seen entering the Sheikh's office, but his condition is yet to be confirmed.

Insh Allah?

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more likely a case of

"Look at me, my people, I am so abused and maligned I have suffered a serious collapse. I am truly a martyr!"

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I actually thought it was genuine - because who would be so naive as to fake an illness for sympathy? How dumb would he have to think his congregation was?

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The "misunderstood" and "taken out of context" arguments are really getting old. The only truth he stated was that men who rape are animals.

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Muslim Cleric's remarks....

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