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When Does Life Begin?

 
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 03:26 pm
real life wrote:
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Victims_of_Violence_Act

Quote:
The Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 (Public Law 108-212) is a United States law which recognizes a "child in utero" as a legal victim, if he or she is injured or killed during the commission of any of over 60 listed federal crimes of violence. The law defines "child in utero" as "a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb."[2]



The law provides penalties for injuring or killing the unborn at any stage of development.

Quote:
It was ultimately co-sponsored by 136 other members of the House before it passed by a vote of 254 in favor to 163 against on February 26, 2004. After several amendments were rejected, it was passed in the Senate by a vote of 61-38 on March 25, 2004. It was signed into law by President Bush on April 1, 2004.


and

Quote:
The Unborn Victims of Violence Act was strongly opposed by most "pro-choice" organizations, on grounds that the U.S. Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision said that the human fetus is not a "person" under the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, and that if the fetus were a Fourteenth Amendment "person," then he or she would have a constitutional right to life.


Do you support this law?


Interesting...

Has the Unborn Victims of Violence Act been challenged in the courts? Legislators can pass whatever laws they choose. Having them deemed Constitutional is another matter.

Personally, no I don't support the law as written. But then, if someone is convicted of murder of the mother what advantage is there to convicting him of double murder beyond making it a capital case?

A greater dilemma for me would be the case where the mother survived but the fetus died. I still wouldn't consider it murder in the event of an early pregnancy. That does NOT mean that I wouldn't consider it a tragedy, but all tragedies can not be made illegal.
0 Replies
 
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 03:41 pm
Science quiz:

What kind of lifeform is present in a woman who becomes pregnant? What kind of life is it?

A.) tapeworm

B.) not a life

C.) human

D.) other...please explain
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 03:51 pm
Bartikus wrote:
JPB wrote:
No, it's none of your business because it's none of your business. Who are we too judge? I agree with most of mismi's points. The difference isn't that it comes down to when does life begin but, given that it's arguable, who should be the judge?


Well apparently only the woman should make that judgment even though she is not the only one involved and....it's arguable! Why should'nt we leave the question to the experts of the field? Maybe these women don't know if the fetus in her is life?


What makes you think the decision on Roe vs Wade wasn't influenced by experts in the field?
0 Replies
 
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 03:58 pm
JPB wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
JPB wrote:
No, it's none of your business because it's none of your business. Who are we too judge? I agree with most of mismi's points. The difference isn't that it comes down to when does life begin but, given that it's arguable, who should be the judge?


Well apparently only the woman should make that judgment even though she is not the only one involved and....it's arguable! Why should'nt we leave the question to the experts of the field? Maybe these women don't know if the fetus in her is life?


What makes you think the decision on Roe vs Wade wasn't influenced by experts in the field?


You mean experts and knowledge(or lack thereof) of the field in the early 1970's? If new discoveries in science have been made since...could that be grounds to possibly revisit Roe v Wade?

How about future discoveries?

http://jc-schools.net/Sounds/uh_oh.wav Laughing
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 05:27 pm
Quote:
We forthwith acknowledge our awareness of the sensitive and emotional nature of the abortion controversy, of the vigorous opposing views, even among physicians, and of the deep and seemingly absolute convictions that the subject inspires. One's philosophy, one's experiences, one's exposure to the raw edges of human existence, one's religious training, one's attitudes toward life and family and their values, and the moral standards one establishes and seeks to observe, are all likely to influence and to color one's thinking and conclusions about abortion.

In addition, population growth, pollution, poverty, and racial overtones tend to complicate and not to simplify the problem.

Our task, of course, is to resolve the issue by constitutional measurement, free of emotion and of predilection. We seek earnestly to do this, and, because we do, we have inquired into, and in this opinion place some emphasis upon, medical and medical-legal history and what that history reveals about man's attitudes toward the abortion procedure over the centuries. We bear in mind, too, Mr. Justice Holmes' admonition in his now-vindicated dissent in Lochner v. New York, 198 U.S. 45, 76 (1905):


"[The Constitution] is made for people of fundamentally differing views, and the accident of our finding certain opinions natural and familiar or novel and even shocking ought not to conclude our judgment upon the question whether statutes embodying them conflict with the Constitution of the United States."

<case history>

<history of abortion and abortion laws>

This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy. The detriment that the State would impose upon the pregnant woman by denying this choice altogether is apparent. Specific and direct harm medically diagnosable even in early pregnancy may be involved. Maternity, or additional offspring, may force upon the woman a distressful life and future. Psychological harm may be imminent. Mental and physical health may be taxed by child care. There is also the distress, for all concerned, associated with the unwanted child, and there is the problem of bringing a child into a family already unable, psychologically and otherwise, to care for it. In other cases, as in this one, the additional difficulties and continuing stigma of unwed motherhood may be involved. All these are factors the woman and her responsible physician necessarily will consider in consultation.

On the basis of elements such as these, appellant and some amici argue that the woman's right is absolute and that she is entitled to terminate her pregnancy at whatever time, in whatever way, and for whatever reason she alone chooses. With this we do not agree. Appellant's arguments that Texas either has no valid interest at all in regulating the abortion decision, or no interest strong enough to support any limitation upon the woman's sole determination, are unpersuasive. The Court's decisions recognizing a right of privacy also acknowledge that some state regulation in areas protected by that right is appropriate. As noted above, a State may properly assert important interests in safeguarding health, in maintaining medical standards, and in protecting potential life. At some point in pregnancy, these respective interests become sufficiently compelling to sustain regulation of the factors that govern the abortion decision. The privacy right involved, therefore, cannot be said to be absolute. In fact, it is not clear to us that the claim asserted by some amici that one has an unlimited right to do with one's body as one pleases bears a close relationship to the right of privacy previously articulated in the Court's decisions. The Court has refused to recognize an unlimited right of this kind in the past. Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905) (vaccination); Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200 (1927) (sterilization).

We, therefore, conclude that the right of personal privacy includes the abortion decision, but that this right is not unqualified and must be considered against important state interests in regulation.

<historical cases sited>

In the recent abortion cases, cited above, courts have recognized these principles. Those striking down state laws have generally scrutinized the State's interests in protecting health and potential life, and have concluded that neither interest justified broad limitations on the reasons for which a physician and his pregnant patient might decide that she should have an abortion in the early stages of pregnancy. Courts sustaining state laws have held that the State's determinations to protect health or prenatal life are dominant and constitutionally justifiable.

A. The appellee and certain amici argue that the fetus is a "person" within the language and meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. In support of this, they outline at length and in detail the well-known facts of fetal development. If this suggestion of personhood is established, the appellant's case, of course, collapses, for the fetus' right to life would then be guaranteed specifically by the Amendment. The appellant conceded as much on reargument. 51 On the other hand, the appellee conceded on reargument 52 that no case could be cited that holds that a fetus is a person within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment.


The Constitution does not define "person" in so many words. Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment contains three references to "person." The first, in defining "citizens," speaks of "persons born or naturalized in the United States." The word also appears both in the Due Process Clause and in the Equal Protection Clause. "Person" is used in other places in the Constitution: in the listing of qualifications for Representatives and Senators, Art. I, § 2, cl. 2, and § 3, cl. 3; in the Apportionment Clause, Art. I, § 2, cl. 3; 53 in the Migration and Importation provision, Art. I, § 9, cl. 1; in the Emolument Clause, Art. I, § 9, cl. 8; in the Electors provisions, Art. II, § 1, cl. 2, and the superseded cl. 3; in the provision outlining qualifications for the office of President, Art. II, § 1, cl. 5; in the Extradition provisions, Art. IV, § 2, cl. 2, and the superseded Fugitive Slave Clause 3; and in the Fifth, Twelfth, and Twenty-second Amendments, as well as in §§ 2 and 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. But in nearly all these instances, the use of the word is such that it has application only postnatally. None indicates, with any assurance, that it has any possible pre-natal application.

All this, together with our observation, supra, that throughout the major portion of the 19th century prevailing legal abortion practices were far freer than they are today, persuades us that the word "person," as used in the Fourteenth Amendment, does not include the unborn.

Full text


The beauty of the law is that it can be revisited at any such time as cases come before the courts. That's why I'm curious if the Unborn Victims of Violence Act has been challenged.

Laws must be based on the State's interest in such a law. Laws that are without State interest are arbitrary and unconstitutional. Roe v Wade determined that the State does not have compelling interest in preventing first term abortions. That determination was made on an assessment of medical, historical, and religious traditions. It also determined that there is no Constitutionally valid law that includes the unborn of any gestational age as a "person".

My own opinion is that a challenge to the verbiage of the Unborn Victims of Violence Act that defines "child in utero" as a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb would be found unconstitutional on the same basis as R v W. I'll be watching with interest.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 05:44 pm
I dug further and apparently there have already been challenges and opinions given that the two do not conflict and the definition of "person" can be defined differently in different circumstances. Sounds like cherry-picking to me...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 06:33 pm
The GOP will continue to cherry-pick verbage about abortion to gain the support of like-minded christians during the current election campaigns. Some are even saying they will move to overthrow Roe v Wade.

These are dangerous people, but there are enough people who think the fetus should have equal legal standing as the mother.

Sad.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 07:19 pm
What kind of lifeform is present as skin in a woman who becomes pregnant? What kind of life is it?

A.) tapeworm

B.) not a life

C.) human

D.) other...please explain
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 07:38 pm
mismi40 wrote:
A tree is a tree...the seed will become a tree...both a necessary part of life - the tree however does not feel or think and never will even when it matures to be a huge oak.
The ignorance of cliché literalism rears its ugly head.
The concept of the simple analogy appears beyond your ken.
Alas, ignorance & superstition are the handmaidens of disaster.
0 Replies
 
mismi
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 09:45 pm
Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 09:51 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
The GOP will continue to cherry-pick verbage about abortion to gain the support of like-minded christians during the current election campaigns. Some are even saying they will move to overthrow Roe v Wade.

These are dangerous people, but there are enough people who think the fetus should have equal legal standing as the mother.

Sad.


News flash. It is not only Christians who are against the wanton destruction of human life.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 09:54 pm
Mismi40, meet Chumly. The master of ad hominens, logical fallacies and defender of the tree. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
mismi
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 09:57 pm
doesn't happen often - but I am at a loss for words! :wink: You know, I am mad at trees - one fell on my house not that long ago... Razz
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 10:02 pm
Intrepid wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
The GOP will continue to cherry-pick verbage about abortion to gain the support of like-minded christians during the current election campaigns. Some are even saying they will move to overthrow Roe v Wade.

These are dangerous people, but there are enough people who think the fetus should have equal legal standing as the mother.

Sad.


News flash. It is not only Christians who are against the wanton destruction of human life.


Newsflash, many christians are for outright slaughter of human beings. Let's go on a crusade! Time to raze Iraq, and the rest of the muslim world!

Don't forget to salt the earth!

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 10:04 pm
Diest TKO wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
The GOP will continue to cherry-pick verbage about abortion to gain the support of like-minded christians during the current election campaigns. Some are even saying they will move to overthrow Roe v Wade.

These are dangerous people, but there are enough people who think the fetus should have equal legal standing as the mother.

Sad.


News flash. It is not only Christians who are against the wanton destruction of human life.


Newsflash, many christians are for outright slaughter of human beings. Let's go on a crusade! Time to raze Iraq, and the rest of the muslim world!

Don't forget to salt the earth!

T
K
O


Non sequitur
0 Replies
 
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 10:16 pm
Diest TKO wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
The GOP will continue to cherry-pick verbage about abortion to gain the support of like-minded christians during the current election campaigns. Some are even saying they will move to overthrow Roe v Wade.

These are dangerous people, but there are enough people who think the fetus should have equal legal standing as the mother.

Sad.


News flash. It is not only Christians who are against the wanton destruction of human life.


Newsflash, many christians are for outright slaughter of human beings. Let's go on a crusade! Time to raze Iraq, and the rest of the muslim world!

Don't forget to salt the earth!

T
K
O


Christians are not for outright slaughter of human beings.
0 Replies
 
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 10:21 pm
Chumly wrote:
What kind of lifeform is present as skin in a woman who becomes pregnant? What kind of life is it?

A.) tapeworm

B.) not a life

C.) human

D.) other...please explain


If you could'nt answer the question I posed.....you will have no luck with this one. Right chum? Yours is unanswerable without an answer to the first....might be a clue.

It's a hippopotamus? No a stalagmite? A bunion?oh....what is it chummy? Don't keep the kids in suspense....educate!
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 11:54 pm
Intrepid now ups the ante to some small degree.

The question becomes: are his claims of logical fallacies valid in the context given, or are his claims of logical fallacies simply the equivalent of bologna.

It's always nice to see a religionist trying to come to terms with rationality, so stay tuned and we'll bring to question said ongoing claims of logical fallacies.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 11:58 pm
Rolling Eyes

This thread is not about one belives in God or not. Does creating labels give you a sense of something or other?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Nov, 2007 12:05 am
Chumly wrote:
Intrepid now ups the ante to some small degree.

The question becomes: are his claims of logical fallacies valid in the context given, or are his claims of logical fallacies simply the equivalent of bologna.

It's always nice to see a religionist trying to come to terms with rationality, so stay tuned and we'll bring to question said ongoing claims of logical fallacies.


Amen!
0 Replies
 
 

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