0
   

When Does Life Begin?

 
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 02:58 am
Bartikus wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
what you've described is what I believe is the mother giving those right's to the unborn. I believe the point in which the unborn is choosen to come to term is the beginning of personhood, because it is at that point that the woman begins investing in the unborn's identity. It is also (for most) the point in which the woman begin's investing in her own identity as a "mother." I thin these choices are very profound, and it's one of the reason's I think choice must be protected.


So by her choice to carry to term (her choice alone to make) she becomes a mother and then and only then, the unborn is given the rights of personhood? That sound right TKO?


That's the social theory that I believe make the most sense.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 02:58 am
McD123 wrote:
how bout now............
I'm not sure I understand...

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 03:00 am
Diest TKO wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
what you've described is what I believe is the mother giving those right's to the unborn. I believe the point in which the unborn is choosen to come to term is the beginning of personhood, because it is at that point that the woman begins investing in the unborn's identity. It is also (for most) the point in which the woman begin's investing in her own identity as a "mother." I thin these choices are very profound, and it's one of the reason's I think choice must be protected.


So by her choice to carry to term (her choice alone to make) she becomes a mother and then and only then, the unborn is given the rights of personhood? That sound right TKO?


That's the social theory that I believe make the most sense.

T
K
O


o i c

Diest TKO wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
So a woman getting an abortion cannot be regarded as a mother....but a mere host?

"mere host?" Who is trivializing motherhood exactly?

Why would this definition only apply to women choosing to abort?


I don't know....you tell us Diest!?
0 Replies
 
Dutchy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 03:24 am
Chumly wrote:
mismi40,

Your claim that you were "pretty clear - and fairly logical" is not only specious but unsubstantiated.

In addition, the majority of the content of your latest post is simply more logical fallacies, inclusive of the Straw Man logical fallacy as per your claim of what you think my concern is.

If you intend to dialog intelligently you will need to be able to dialog with logicality, congruency and empiricism. Unfortunately you have not shown these abilities to much extent.

I suggest you start with learning how to define your terms and understanding and thus hopefully avoiding the larger pitfalls of logical fallacies.


Chumly your verboseness is a lot of hogwash. Go back to school and learn to speak proper English first before tangling yourself up in words which are totally irrelevant to the issues the lady so clearly put forward!
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 03:43 am
Bartikus wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
what you've described is what I believe is the mother giving those right's to the unborn. I believe the point in which the unborn is choosen to come to term is the beginning of personhood, because it is at that point that the woman begins investing in the unborn's identity. It is also (for most) the point in which the woman begin's investing in her own identity as a "mother." I thin these choices are very profound, and it's one of the reason's I think choice must be protected.


So by her choice to carry to term (her choice alone to make) she becomes a mother and then and only then, the unborn is given the rights of personhood? That sound right TKO?


That's the social theory that I believe make the most sense.

T
K
O


o i c

Diest TKO wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
So a woman getting an abortion cannot be regarded as a mother....but a mere host?

"mere host?" Who is trivializing motherhood exactly?

Why would this definition only apply to women choosing to abort?


I don't know....you tell us Diest!?

I'm a rocket scientist, not a psychic.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
mismi
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 06:06 am
Dutchy wrote:
Chumly wrote:
mismi40,

Your claim that you were "pretty clear - and fairly logical" is not only specious but unsubstantiated.

In addition, the majority of the content of your latest post is simply more logical fallacies, inclusive of the Straw Man logical fallacy as per your claim of what you think my concern is.

If you intend to dialog intelligently you will need to be able to dialog with logicality, congruency and empiricism. Unfortunately you have not shown these abilities to much extent.

I suggest you start with learning how to define your terms and understanding and thus hopefully avoiding the larger pitfalls of logical fallacies.


Chumly your verboseness is a lot of hogwash. Go back to school and learn to speak proper English first before tangling yourself up in words which are totally irrelevant to the issues the lady so clearly put forward!


My hero! :wink: Thank you sweet Dutchy!

I kind of agree with him Chumly, seems to me your use of such laborious wording - is an effort to intimidate. I am reading more so keep your huffing and puffing to yourself - and when I have clarified my thoughts without the emotion you so detest then I shall come back and share my findings...dont' know when that will be though...
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 06:39 am
I always saw it as the ultimate sign of defeat when the dumb kids tried to win arguments by telling the smart kids that they are using big words that nobody understands.

So Chumly enjoys the odd sesquipedalian, it hardly invalidates his points which are often very insightful and germane to the discussion.

Speaking of which, how far would you so-called prolifers take your control if you could?
0 Replies
 
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 06:55 am
Diest TKO wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
what you've described is what I believe is the mother giving those right's to the unborn. I believe the point in which the unborn is choosen to come to term is the beginning of personhood, because it is at that point that the woman begins investing in the unborn's identity. It is also (for most) the point in which the woman begin's investing in her own identity as a "mother." I thin these choices are very profound, and it's one of the reason's I think choice must be protected.


So by her choice to carry to term (her choice alone to make) she becomes a mother and then and only then, the unborn is given the rights of personhood? That sound right TKO?


That's the social theory that I believe make the most sense.

T
K
O


o i c

Diest TKO wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
So a woman getting an abortion cannot be regarded as a mother....but a mere host?

"mere host?" Who is trivializing motherhood exactly?

Why would this definition only apply to women choosing to abort?


I don't know....you tell us Diest!?

I'm a rocket scientist, not a psychic.

T
K
O


You understand your own words though right? You effectively answered your own question.
0 Replies
 
mismi
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 07:17 am
Eorl wrote:
I always saw it as the ultimate sign of defeat when the dumb kids tried to win arguments by telling the smart kids that they are using big words that nobody understands.

So Chumly enjoys the odd sesquipedalian, it hardly invalidates his points which are often very insightful and germane to the discussion.

Speaking of which, how far would you so-called prolifers take your control if you could?


To be honest - both sides of the argument on this thread are muddled by derisiveness and innuendo - implying that I am like one of the dumb kids because of my comment is very adult of you. My comment was simple in that I said I am thinking and I am going to try to meet Chumly on his ground...because my emotions are so very mixed up with it, it will take me some time to seperate them from fact and hopefully do what TKO has so kindly asked me to, because I have other things to do - hard to believe I know. :wink:

I am going to think about your question as well Eorl...I may be emotional...but I don't go off half cocked - most of the time anyway.

(for some strange reason I feel like sticking my tongue out at you. :wink: )
0 Replies
 
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 07:53 am
Bartikus wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
what you've described is what I believe is the mother giving those right's to the unborn. I believe the point in which the unborn is choosen to come to term is the beginning of personhood, because it is at that point that the woman begins investing in the unborn's identity. It is also (for most) the point in which the woman begin's investing in her own identity as a "mother." I thin these choices are very profound, and it's one of the reason's I think choice must be protected.


So by her choice to carry to term (her choice alone to make) she becomes a mother and then and only then, the unborn is given the rights of personhood? That sound right TKO?


That's the social theory that I believe make the most sense.

T
K
O


o i c

Diest TKO wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
So a woman getting an abortion cannot be regarded as a mother....but a mere host?

"mere host?" Who is trivializing motherhood exactly?

Why would this definition only apply to women choosing to abort?


I don't know....you tell us Diest!?


Only a woman who decides to carry full term can be considered a mother of a child whereas a woman who decides to abort cannot...she remains just a host to something else? That about right?

That's a social theory alright!

Do you think unsuspecting women who decide on abortion will realize the pro choice camp regard them and their unborn differently....simply because of the choice they make? Shocked
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 09:32 am
mismi40 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Chumly wrote:
mismi40,

Your claim that you were "pretty clear - and fairly logical" is not only specious but unsubstantiated.

In addition, the majority of the content of your latest post is simply more logical fallacies, inclusive of the Straw Man logical fallacy as per your claim of what you think my concern is.

If you intend to dialog intelligently you will need to be able to dialog with logicality, congruency and empiricism. Unfortunately you have not shown these abilities to much extent.

I suggest you start with learning how to define your terms and understanding and thus hopefully avoiding the larger pitfalls of logical fallacies.


Chumly your verboseness is a lot of hogwash. Go back to school and learn to speak proper English first before tangling yourself up in words which are totally irrelevant to the issues the lady so clearly put forward!


My hero! :wink: Thank you sweet Dutchy!

I kind of agree with him Chumly, seems to me your use of such laborious wording - is an effort to intimidate. I am reading more so keep your huffing and puffing to yourself - and when I have clarified my thoughts without the emotion you so detest then I shall come back and share my findings...dont' know when that will be though...
mismi40 wrote:
Eorl wrote:
I always saw it as the ultimate sign of defeat when the dumb kids tried to win arguments by telling the smart kids that they are using big words that nobody understands.

So Chumly enjoys the odd sesquipedalian, it hardly invalidates his points which are often very insightful and germane to the discussion.

Speaking of which, how far would you so-called prolifers take your control if you could?


To be honest - both sides of the argument on this thread are muddled by derisiveness and innuendo - implying that I am like one of the dumb kids because of my comment is very adult of you. My comment was simple in that I said I am thinking and I am going to try to meet Chumly on his ground...because my emotions are so very mixed up with it, it will take me some time to seperate them from fact and hopefully do what TKO has so kindly asked me to, because I have other things to do - hard to believe I know. :wink:

I am going to think about your question as well Eorl...I may be emotional...but I don't go off half cocked - most of the time anyway.

(for some strange reason I feel like sticking my tongue out at you. :wink: )
Quite right.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 10:47 am
fungotheclown wrote:
So, I'm still waiting to hear back from a few of you on this...
Real Life said
Quote:
War is morally justifiable as self defense.

How is killing the innocent anything like defending oneself (or one's country) to the death against an aggressor?

Many states have laws under which you can be charged with murder of the unborn, (for instance, when you shoot a pregnant woman and both she and the baby die).

Do you agree that you should be held liable for two murders in this situation?

Why or why not?

I said
Quote:
First off, I don't think that self-defense is the only valid justification for war. I seriously doubt you do either. If you do, the American Revolutionary War was unjustified, because the colonists were not in danger. The American Civil War was not justified, because those who led and fought the majority of it were not in danger. Really, with the exception of a war with genocide as its goal, no war is justified, because simply accepting the aggressor's rule would almost certainly result in a lower loss of human life than resisting.

Second, I think the second murder charge as well as the legality of the abortion should be dependent on the level of the fetuses development. I agree that late-term and partial-birth abortions are wrong, but I don't think that a fertilized egg or early fetus is a human being. The nervous system is completely undeveloped, and it is completely dependent on the mother for survival. It's a parasite, one that we like, but a parasite nonetheless. It's closer to a leech or tapeworm than it is to a human being. In my eyes, the morning after pill is morally equivalent to tapeworm meds.

There are plenty of things that are morally justifiable, or even morally necessary, that we try to limit. Police actions, operations, laws in general, etc. You still haven't shown this this line of thinking to be a valid argument.


I've heard a lot about the word parasite, but nothing about the actual arguments, being that there are other moral justifications for war than self defense, and that a fetus lacks a central nervous system developed enough to be considered murder. I'm looking at you reallife, these arguments were made in direct response to your argument. So far, they've been unchallenged by the group. Seems you might want to refute them...


Your actual argument was that destroying the unborn could be compared to destroying a parasite.

So, addressing the wording IS addressing the issue, or at least addressing an argument advanced from one side of the issue.

As far as a 'developed nervous system', exactly HOW developed must one be before you would consider killing them to be immoral , or that it should be illegal?
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 10:50 am
Eorl wrote:
So Chumly enjoys the odd sesquipedalian, it hardly invalidates his points which are often very insightful and germane to the discussion.
You're most kind, and yes I could be more colloquial and folksy but I would not have as much fun in doing so. You also make very rational and logical positions and are willing to back them up.

Any fan of argumentation is both willing and able to look beyond the immediate style to discern the quality of the substance.
0 Replies
 
fungotheclown
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 11:14 am
Quote:
As far as a 'developed nervous system', exactly HOW developed must one be before you would consider killing them to be immoral , or that it should be illegal?



I would like to see cognitive thought and sentience. So, as stated before, late term abortions and partial birth abortions are bad, because at the point the cortex has developed enough to support the above named functions, but to flat out ban abortion denies women a right to make choices about their bodies. I don't think we have the right to deny them that.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 11:18 am
Eorl wrote:
I always saw it as the ultimate sign of defeat when the dumb kids tried to win arguments by telling the smart kids that they are using big words that nobody understands.


Another 'you guys are stupid' response. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 11:36 am
fungotheclown wrote:
...but to flat out ban abortion denies women a right to make choices about their bodies. I don't think we have the right to deny them that.


This thinking has always struck me as odd. In this age of women (& men) desiring to utilize and justify the pain & discomfort involved with; collagen injections, liposuction, implants of all kinds, etc. for supposed better physical appearances - what is the big deal about having a "parasite" sucked out of your body?
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 11:40 am
Bartikus wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
what you've described is what I believe is the mother giving those right's to the unborn. I believe the point in which the unborn is choosen to come to term is the beginning of personhood, because it is at that point that the woman begins investing in the unborn's identity. It is also (for most) the point in which the woman begin's investing in her own identity as a "mother." I thin these choices are very profound, and it's one of the reason's I think choice must be protected.


So by her choice to carry to term (her choice alone to make) she becomes a mother and then and only then, the unborn is given the rights of personhood? That sound right TKO?


That's the social theory that I believe make the most sense.

T
K
O


o i c

Diest TKO wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
So a woman getting an abortion cannot be regarded as a mother....but a mere host?

"mere host?" Who is trivializing motherhood exactly?

Why would this definition only apply to women choosing to abort?


I don't know....you tell us Diest!?

I'm a rocket scientist, not a psychic.

T
K
O


You understand your own words though right? You effectively answered your own question.

Your post does not follow any logic. I certainly understand my own words, it's your comprehension that is at question.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 11:50 am
fungotheclown wrote:
Quote:
As far as a 'developed nervous system', exactly HOW developed must one be before you would consider killing them to be immoral , or that it should be illegal?



I would like to see cognitive thought and sentience. So, as stated before, late term abortions and partial birth abortions are bad, because at the point the cortex has developed enough to support the above named functions, but to flat out ban abortion denies women a right to make choices about their bodies. I don't think we have the right to deny them that.


Since the unborn has DNA which does not match it's mother's, would you agree that the unborn is not 'part of the mother's body'?
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 11:53 am
Bartikus wrote:
Only a woman who decides to carry full term can be considered a mother of a child whereas a woman who decides to abort cannot...she remains just a host to something else? That about right?

I've never made meantion of what other's may concider the woman as, I've only commented on the investment into the mother identity of the woman.

You can concider her what you like, it's really of no consequence.

Bartikus wrote:

That's a social theory alright!

Concider the alternative: The mother identity is simple social congruency to the biological relationship. That is to say that a woman who gives up her child for adoption is more of a mother than the individual who adopts and raises the child.

My social theory is that the individual who adopts a child experiances a similar investment into the identity of mother (assuming it's a woman). This facsimile experiance can be equally profound and gives the adopting parent the title of "mother" despite never being host to the child in utero.

Bartikus wrote:

Do you think unsuspecting women who decide on abortion will realize the pro choice camp regard them and their unborn differently....simply because of the choice they make? Shocked


Yours is the camp of judgement. I'm just saying that a woamn can veiw her unborn as she sees fit. My theroy is that once a woman choses to keep the unborn, the identities of "mother" and "child" begin. I also believe this is the point where personhood begins to be established.

My theory is also congruent with the idea that a pregnant woamn who is killed and therefore her unborn is terminated as well would count as two criminal acts. The woman having chosen to keep the child has provided personhood of the unborn, and thus given the first rights as custodian.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
fungotheclown
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 12:10 pm
I don't like that theory, Deist. By that system, an expectant mother who is comatose for the majority of her term (thus not making a choice about the child) could not be considered a mother, and it would be morally acceptable to perform a late term abortion.
0 Replies
 
 

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