When Does Life Begin?

Terry wrote:

Echi, I have studied consciousness enough to know that it does not exist when the brain structures that generate it are damaged or unformed. A good book on the subject is "The Quest for Consciousness: A Neurobiological Approach" by Christof Koch.

Some people like to anthropomorphize and attribute awareness to everything, including bacteria, trees, the earth and the universe. I see no scientific justification for any of it.

I appreciate the reference, but, with all respect, Terry, I'm not about to go digging through a book on a hunt for the evidence that you believe exists. I'm interested to know the specific reasons that have you so convinced. I'm not asking you to write me an essay.

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When does life begin?

Ask a woman that has been desiring a child who just found out she is pregnant. She will give you a different answer than the woman or girl that "accidently" conceived and is trying to figure out her options.

Some believe that there is a force in the universe that goes to work producing what you desire as soon as you desire it. (Think of all the women that become pregnant as soon as they adopt) In that case, the life of my children began when I was pre-teen.

Thank Gawd that force didn't believe me when I said I wanted 10! Laughing

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echi, consciousness requires neural activity between brain stem, limbic system, thalamus (intralaminar nuclei), and cerebral cortex. The synaptic connections between the thalamus and cortex are established between the 20th and 24th week of gestation. The types of brain waves that indicate activation of the network do not occur at all before then, and do not show regular bilateral synchronous activity until the 26th week. It's like an electrical circuit: everything must be in place, connected AND have current flowing before the bulb can light up.

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It looks like the general consensus is that life begins at conception. (This is actually an undeniable fact.) And as this life can only become a "human" and nothing else - it is therefore deduced that "human-life" begins at conception. [OK - OK - I will concede for those who don't like that moniker to claim: "to-be-human-life" at conception.] Laughing

The big debate develops when someone decides it is OK to terminate this "...human-life".

Are we all in agreement about this? :wink:

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i keep f*cking tellin ya i dont know but its no use waiting around. jeez what you people like? Its not like waiting for the bus, youse on it already.

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Life begins long before conception, and what is conceived by humans doesn't usually become human life. Most fertilized eggs die naturally, often because they are too flawed genetically to survive.

Nature kills perfectly healthy embryos/fetuses as well through spontaneous miscarriage. If god/nature does not protect fetal life, why should we?

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Terry wrote:

Life begins long before conception, and what is conceived by humans doesn't usually become human life. Most fertilized eggs die naturally, often because they are too flawed genetically to survive.

Nature kills perfectly healthy embryos/fetuses as well through spontaneous miscarriage. If god/nature does not protect fetal life, why should we?

Terry:

Direct Answer: Compassion for Life/Humanity.

Now - This is not meant to be sarcastic or rhetorical, however with the mindset that you speak of consider this:

Nature also kills perfectly healthy people, boys, girls, etc. If God does not protect them - why should we? Confused

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Terry wrote:

...what is conceived by humans doesn't usually become human life.

marsupials? amphibians? reptillian...actually know a few of these, you are probably correct here.

Most human offspring are pretty grotesque, at least until their near demise.

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When does life begin? When we stop obsessing so much over how other individuals live their lives and celebrate our own life with all the glory a human being is granted by that first breath of air that fills their lungs.

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Baddog1, Nature does not kill perfectly healthy boys and girls, except by accident.

Having genuine compassion for living, breathing human beings is a different matter than getting emotional over mindless embryos.

-----

Steve, an egg fertilized by 2 sperm has 69 chromosomes and will usually develop into a molar mass instead of a human being. That is not human life, in my book. Neither is an egg/embryo with such severe genetic defects that it cannot even reach the fetal stage of development.

Having had 2 Caesarian deliveries, I would be delighted to give birth to marsupials and spare my daughters that pain. Laughing

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Terry wrote:

It's like an electrical circuit: everything must be in place, connected AND have current flowing before the bulb can light up.

In fact, it is an electrical circuit.

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Terry:

Quote:

Baddog1, Nature does not kill perfectly healthy boys and girls, except by accident.

Certainly the same could be said about all of life!

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Terry wrote:

echi, consciousness requires neural activity between brain stem, limbic system, thalamus (intralaminar nuclei), and cerebral cortex. The synaptic connections between the thalamus and cortex are established between the 20th and 24th week of gestation. The types of brain waves that indicate activation of the network do not occur at all before then, and do not show regular bilateral synchronous activity until the 26th week. It's like an electrical circuit: everything must be in place, connected AND have current flowing before the bulb can light up.

This may be a dumb question, but what is (what may be) the function of the cerebral cortex prior to its activation?

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echi, at that stage it's only purpose would be to grow itself into a cerebral cortex....?

It might be worth mentioning at this point that all the raw materials that make a baby are supplied by the mother over the course of nine months. A fertilised egg has the plan and the mechanism to take those raw materials and build a person, but is a person a "person" before it has been made?

Should a woman have the right to refuse to eat when she is pregnant?

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Terry wrote:

Life begins long before conception, and what is conceived by humans doesn't usually become human life. Most fertilized eggs die naturally, often because they are too flawed genetically to survive.

Nature kills perfectly healthy embryos/fetuses as well through spontaneous miscarriage. If god/nature does not protect fetal life, why should we?

Do you see no difference between accidents and intentional acts?

Since some people, through natural processes, have cancer -- is it ok to intentionally give cancer to someone?

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Eorl wrote:

echi, at that stage it's only purpose would be to grow itself into a cerebral cortex....?

It might be worth mentioning at this point that all the raw materials that make a baby are supplied by the mother over the course of nine months. A fertilised egg has the plan and the mechanism to take those raw materials and build a person, but is a person a "person" before it has been made?

Should a woman have the right to refuse to eat when she is pregnant?

Yes. Of course. (That is an interesting question, but I don't understand the relevance.)

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Eorl wrote:

echi, at that stage it's only purpose would be to grow itself into a cerebral cortex....?

It might be worth mentioning at this point that all the raw materials that make a baby are supplied by the mother over the course of nine months. A fertilised egg has the plan and the mechanism to take those raw materials and build a person, but is a person a "person" before it has been made?

Should a woman have the right to refuse to eat when she is pregnant?

Should the woman have the right to do whatever she choses with the unborn?

What if she were to hire a doctor to remove the arms and legs of the unborn in an in-utero surgery (similar to the technique used in the pics that baddog1 posted) , because she wanted him/her to be born without limbs?

OK by you?

Since it's not a living human being at that point, are there any moral problems with that?

Why is depriving the unborn of a limb(s) any different than depriving him of a life?

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real life, yes I think I probably would support the argument that the woman has the right to do such things. Smoking during pregnancy is an example of just that. (Try to resist the urge to think that means I'm in favour of it.)

Hell, in some countries, you are allowed to cut the end off a baby's penis, even after it is born !!!

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real life wrote:

Why is depriving the unborn of a limb(s) any different than depriving him of a life?

Do you know any amputees?

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No suicidal ones.

I've also worked in psychiatric settings where many persons with all their limbs attempted suicide multiple times.

What's your point? That you should decide if someone else's life is worth living?

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When Does Life Begin?

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