Quote:As to flirting techniques- well lies and deceit are a necessary aid.
This, I'm sure is merely a matter of opinion. Flirting, flattering, or whatever doesn't have to be deceitful unless of course your main and only intention is a quick roll in the hay.
I never said, or even hinted, at such a thing as a quick roll in the hay. I was talking about flirting from the point of view of passing a coded message that I am willing to provide the adored object, and who in their right mind would flirt with an unadored object, with an experience she had never had before and which she was yearning for deep down in the marrow of her bones and in the interstices of her excitable cells.
Anything else is but jocular, piss-balling about phoney machismo not dissimilar to bungee jumping with the safety straps having been tested by the authorities.
Anyway- hay is prickly so quick is an unnecessary word.
Quote:I never said, or even hinted, at such a thing as a quick roll in the hay. I was talking about flirting from the point of view of passing a coded message that I am willing to provide the adored object, and who in their right mind would flirt with an unadored object, with an experience she had never had before and which she was yearning for deep down in the marrow of her bones and in the interstices of her excitable cells.
OK, I got ya. I just don't believe that deciet and lies is necessarily a part of it.
I am pretty dense when it comes to women. Heck I was in night school taking a computer course. The teacher was a young pretty woman. She even rubbed her leg against mine while explaining something. I was so thick and didn't know what to say or do. Gosh, she was the teacher and I was afraid of being too forward.
Agreeing with Set. I will never understand Spendius.
I presume from that osso that you think that the trillion dollar industry in "beautification" is an exercise in honesty.
There is no other way that I can see of you meaning anything else.
I also presume that you are advising the ladies on here to offer to new men they meet an open and true account of their physical and mental condition and a brief rundown of any history they have which it might be useful for him to know.
You are perfectly entitled to advise that and I must say it is a very honourable position and I fully support it. I sincerely hope it catches on. Preferably like wildfire.
However, I'm afraid that I find myself unable to advise men to follow the same path for reasons too obvious to state and I wouldn't dream of advising ladies in these matters apart from reminding them that flirting has a real meaning to honest men and is as I stated it earlier.
I did preface my remarks about what flirting meant to ladies by saying that I wasn't sure and that I allowed certain evidence to guide me.
I'm sorry if you misunderstood me. I was trying to be honest but it looks like that isn't a particularly good policy around here.
Spendius, you got all indignant when marty made an assumption about you based on your statement (which I believe was intentionally decieving in the first place), and then turn around and read waaaay too much into what Osso says. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
OssoB said she agreed with Set.
Let's take a look at what he said, not someone's attempt to interpret OssoB's agreement.
Setanta wrote:I can see a fundamental perception problem with Lil' Kay here . . . flirting is not a discrete activity that one whips out of one's hip pocket for use in particular situations in which one thinks it would be useful. People who succeed at flirting only succeed because they behave in a casual and natural manner. Flirting is how they deal with nearly everyone. A man has to be careful, for example, when flirting with another man, because: a--you don't want to encourage illusions in a homosexual man if you are not homosexual yourself; and, b--you don't want some neanderthal to freak out and attempt to beat you up because he thinks you're coming on to him. But, otherwise, with those caveats noted, i flirt with absolutely everybody, all the time. My Sweetiepie Girl often says that if she is ever out in public with me, and i'm not flirting, she's going to call the paramedics, and check for a pulse.
Sure the first guy was flirting with you Lil' Kay--and that's OK, it's OK to flirt with absolutely everyone. It's just not OK to practice deceit, or to manipulate others on false pretenses.
Yes, that is what I agreed with, in particular, his last sentence; I've no argument with the sentences before that, though that doesn't describe me personally.
I should have, perhaps, put an 'and' between saying I agreed with Set and my next comment, that I'd never understand Spendius. That's a generalization, not specific to this thread.
How easy tangents get started. It always fascinates and entertains me.
Fine summary statement. Will you explain?
osso-
The problem is a language one as usual. If "flirting" is allowed to mean anything anybody wants it to mean it is another word lost to the language.
A conversation is impossible under such circumstances. A word must have an agreed specific meaning or at least something closely approximating to that. If everybody has their own definition of "flirting" then a thread about it becomes a collection of individual statements all at cross purposes and communication, the essence of human success, breaks down.
I think "flirting" has an accepted connotation with sex. If others don't they need a new word to distinguish initial sexual overtures from general friendliness, politeness and flattery employed for other reasons.
To flirt with a lady and then back out when she responds positively is to me most ungentlemanly as it is bound to undermine her self confidence
and give her the impression that she has been used for some trivial amusement solely to boost the ego of the person engaging in such activity.
The positive response of a woman means a great deal to her and men ought to appreciate that even though it might not mean much to them.
That is particularly important if the woman is lonely or unhappy.
Oh, I need one too (a tutorial)..
Nobody can give you one without knowing something about you. You need a manager who knows what level to pitch you at but lower usually works quickest.
In general though it is best to play down your disadvantages and play up your advantages. That is if success is your criteria rather than being honourable. Like having a flash car on credit only the former being in evidence. Lies and deceit not to beat about the bush. That's likely to be what's coming your way though.
The research from MB, for which thanks, more or less confirms what I've been saying I think.
The initial and early development in a process leading to X or Y.
Still, I see nothing in the definition above that states lies and deceit as a general rule. Sure, some people are dishonest by nature, but not everyone has ill intentions
Oh, for pete's sake! This has gone on long enough. Next time, wear something low-cut and allow a little nip-slip. That'll grab his attention and you won't even have to speak to the poor guy. Problem solved.
Strange, this is just about the first time I've been able to completely understand Spendy. Perhaps this is a moment of clarity, a dry spell, so to speak, in an otherwise endless shower of inebriation.
You're expressing your cynicism quite lucidly right now, Spendy.
You mean, of course, IB, that you have understood this one.
I do agree that it is the duty of a communicator to be lucid but in some of these areas one has to take into account sensibilities. Otherwise there would be little need for art.
Miss Austen has a famous book called Sense and Sensibility but I'm not sure I would recommend the "sense" aspect to the Mother's Union. I prefer to allow them to continue to believe themselves to have a refined literary taste. It is a bit cynical to say the least.
My slightly inebriated periods are after closing time and I think of them as The After Midnight Scholar.
My idea of "inebriated" is speechless and horizontal which I gave up long ago due to the after effects.
I'm not sure also that knowing the tactics and motives of the enemy, either through instruction from the best writers or experience, can be justly classed as "cynical". I see it as an aspect of the law of self preservation under which head I cannot be faulted.
Underestimating the little darlings is a right no-no. They never for a moment, to my knowledge, ever stop plotting and planning. And I don't blame them. It is an integral part of their charm.
I hope littlek won't mind my reviving this thread for my own selfish purposes. But something happened today that made me think: "Wow, I so need a flirting tutorial". This, in turn, made me think, "wasn't there once a thread about this on A2K?" Be forewarned: The story is complicated, and I'll need three paragraphs of introduction before I can get to the meat of the matter. Please be patient with me.
***
Today I visited the Franklin D. Roosevelt presidential library -- a very interesting place, though mostly in ways unrelated to flirting. Like everyone, I took a tour of the premises. In my group was a woman who caught my attention. I'll call her "India Girl", because by the looks of her, she was half-Indian, half-European. She also was in her early thirties and drop-dead gorgeous. Between stops, she talked a lot with her friend, a somewhat less attractive woman of Chinese ancestry and similar age. Let's call her "China Girl". In their conversations, both were intelligent, quick at repartee, witty, and funny. But India Girl was especially so. I thought, and think, she was a perfect package.
So the tour begins. The guide starts his talk by explaining how FDR, although born into a family of old money, turned out a Democrat, and as president proved a champion of America's poor people. Somebody asks where the family's "old money" had come from. The tour guide is prepared for this question, and answers competently: "Well, a pre-revolution ancestor of FDR, <FirstName> Roosevelt, owned a sugar refinery in New York. He was very successful, so he branched out into banking and founded the Bank of New York together with Alexander Hamilton and another banker [whose name I don't remember, T.] The Bank of New York remained in business until quite recently. The Roosevelts' stake in it, and the revenue it created, passed down from generation to generation." The group is satisfied. We just learned something.
On to the house that FDR was born in. After some more talk by the guide, the group is free to roam through the first floor. After ten minutes of that, the guide is asking for our attention: "Folks, I need your opinion here. This young lady has asked me if we tour guides ever talk about Warren Delano, FDR's grandfather, and how he got rich in the opium trade with China. What do you think -- should we tour guides bring up subjects like this?" The "young lady", you guessed it, is India girl.
On hearing the tour guide's announcement, the people in the audience change their facial expressions towards consternation. But nobody says anything, so it isn't clear if the consternation is about the unpleasant news on the Delano-Rooesvelts' family money, or about India Girl bringing it up. After some time, somebody says, "What's the relevance of this opium stuff to FDR?" The tour guide chimes in: "That's what I asked: what's the relevance?" The audience's reaction makes India Girl somewhat embarrassed and defensive. "I only asked if it ever comes up in these tours, and said that the National Park Service should deal with it openly. This is the FDR presidential library, and I think librarians shouldn't be in the business of hagiograpy." I love it.
In the meantime I've had some time to think the matter through, and deliver my conclusion to the guide: "Back at the beginning of the tour, you talked about the Old Roosevelt's sugar refinery and his bank. You never questioned the relevance of that to FDR's background. So if Warren Delano's opium dealings contributed a comparable amount of money to the family fortune -- did it?" (undecided look by the guide) " then it belongs into the background narrative about FDR's family. You shouldn't talk about the opium any more than you talk about the refinery and the bank. But you shouldn't talk about it any less either." The guide is gracious: "Weeeelll... that's a perfectly reasonable point, too. Thank you for your perspective." India Girl looks relieved, even gleeful. At least not everybody thinks she's a party-pooper.
Shortly thereafter, we move up to the first floor. As I look into one of the room, India Girl and China girl appear by my side. India Girl smiles a gorgeous smile at me and says: "So this is where Elanore lived, huh?" I react confused: "How do you know this roome is Elanore's?" India Girl smiles again and points to a metal plate saying in huge, bold letters: "Elanore Roosevelt's Room". Slapping my hand against my forehead, I turn to the plate and read the body text below the heading, which is pretty long. When I finish it, China Girl and India Girl are gone.
The last time I see India Girl and China Girl is when I leave the birth place. They sit on a bench. China Girl waves at me, smiles again, and says: "Hey, thanks for supporting me back in there." I smile back, say "sure, anytime", and we both go our seperate ways.
***
I screwed this up, didn't I?
Since I can already anticipate your answer, here is what I'd like to hear from you flirting pros: How was the interaction between India Girl and me supposed to play out? Please give me the script of what would have happened if I wasn't such a hopelessly incompetent flirt.
