Freedom FROM religion

Re: Freedom FROM religion

neologist wrote:

Would we all be better off if, instead of our having freedom of religion, we were to have freedom from religion?

Hear, hear! (or is it here, here!?)

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I think that if we're honest, we already have freedom from religion. If you see someone giving the hard-sell, you're free to turn the channel, surf past, or walk away. We can be as religion-free in the conduct of our lives as we want to be. Granted, there are monuments or buildings here and there that we may have to catch a glance at around town, but the only time we have to confront the aspects of religion we don't want is by choice.

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snood wrote:

I think that if we're honest, we already have freedom from religion. If you see someone giving the hard-sell, you're free to turn the channel, surf past, or walk away. We can be as religion-free in the conduct of our lives as we want to be. Granted, there are monuments or buildings here and there that we may have to catch a glance at around town, but the only time we have to confront the aspects of religion we don't want is by choice.

PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. Other than that I mostly agree with snood.

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Hey man - that's two or three times we've agreed in the last few weeks.

I'm seriously gonna have to start rethinking my opinions, if this keeps up... Laughing

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Everybody in my workplace is a Christian. They all speak as if it's a given we agree on religion, if we disagree on specifics. I have not told any of them of my atheism. They all say, God is this and God is that; he wants us to etc. etc. It really gets tiresome having to pause during the performance of my duty to be told this stuff over and over. Small wonder I speak out on an anonymous forum. It keeps me from having to alienate those whom I see everyday.

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I agree as well, for the most part. There are still schools where Jewish and other non-Christian kids are expected to sing Silent Night at the annual Christmas pagaent (or sit out and do an art project while the rest of the kids and parents come have a party). I think people get too aggitated about seeing a nativity scene or menorah on display at public buildings, but that still happens in some places. Do witnesses in court still have to swear on the Christian bible to tell the truth, so help them, God? Perjury laws apply to everyone - I hope the Christian bible has been removed from the courtrooms.

It really isn't where we are today that has me concerned as much as the push towards a theocracy that needs to be pointed out and fought against.

Arella's call for a Christian America followed by a Christian world still echos. She isn't alone by a far shot.

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edgarblythe wrote:

Everybody in my workplace is a Christian. They all speak as if it's a given we agree on religion, if we disagree on specifics. I have not told any of them of my atheism. They all say, God is this and God is that; he wants us to etc. etc. It really gets tiresome having to pause during the performance of my duty to be told this stuff over and over. Small wonder I speak out on an anonymous forum. It keeps me from having to alienate those whom I see everyday.

I can see where that would be a tiresome situation edgar.

To say nothing of the fact that its a microcosm of the exclusion you have to encounter in the country en masse.

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Freedom from religion? Not in our lifetimes.

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It could be a lot worse. We could be a lot less free from religion.

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edgarblythe- I hear ya. Where I live, the community is overwhelmingly Christian. I have the good fortune to have two neighbors on my block who are agnostics. One of the neighbors and myself can get into good discussions about religion, without my being concerned about offending her. The problem is, we are poles apart, politically, but hey, you can't have everything.

My other agnostic neighbor, who has a nominally Christian wife, can tend to be a big blowhard. We have a monthly dinner with a number of neighbors. We were at one of those, when a new neighbor was present. I learned subsequently that these people are solid, church going Christians.

My agnostic neighbor went into one of his diatribes (think "Frank" ). Next thing that I knew, the new neighbor decided that she did not want to continue going to dinner with us. It was a pity. They were really nice people.

I think that one needs to know when it is appropriate to state your piece, and when it is better to simply keep your mouth shut.

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By the way, where is Frank? Did he get himself banned? I really miss the crotchety old geezer.

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I don't know. I really ought to write to him, and find out.

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I think that one needs to know when it is appropriate to state your piece, and when it is better to simply keep your mouth shut.
I'm working on that, really I am.

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dyslexia wrote:

I think that one needs to know when it is appropriate to state your piece, and when it is better to simply keep your mouth shut.

I think that is one of the reasons that I like A2K. I am free to be "me". Most of the people in my area are quite unaware of my views, and unless the issue is brought up in a friendly way, I really don't discuss them often.

Because my last name is Jewish, most people assume that I follow those traditions. I will get a friendly, "and how was YOUR holiday" during the winter season, and I usually answer simply, "fine". If I am pressed about something, I will usually answer with something like, "I am not terribly observant".

I never had this as an issue when I lived in New York!

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Mindonfire wrote:

real life wrote:
The upshot of it is that ALL laws are based on SOMEONE'S idea of what is right and what is wrong [...]

Well, then who is the SOMEONE who decides what is right and what is wrong?

Depends on the country. In the US, the majority of voting-age Americans decides what's legal and illegal, under restrictions defined by a couple hundred judges. All of them act on ideas of right and wrong defined by people like Edsel Moses, Jesus Christ, Adam Smith, and John Rawls, with variations by the individual decisionmaker. Why is it inappropriate for lawmakers to impose the views of Moses and Christ, but fine to impose those of Smith and Rawls?

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JPB wrote:

I agree as well, for the most part. There are still schools where Jewish and other non-Christian kids are expected to sing Silent Night at the annual Christmas pagaent (or sit out and do an art project while the rest of the kids and parents come have a party). I think people get too aggitated about seeing a nativity scene or menorah on display at public buildings, but that still happens in some places. Do witnesses in court still have to swear on the Christian bible to tell the truth, so help them, God? Perjury laws apply to everyone - I hope the Christian bible has been removed from the courtrooms.

It really isn't where we are today that has me concerned as much as the push towards a theocracy that needs to be pointed out and fought against.

Arella's call for a Christian America followed by a Christian world still echos. She isn't alone by a far shot.

What? My call for a Christian America? Sounds like I blew a trumpet and said, "Chrisitianity or death!" You might want to add that I didn't say "at all costs" as many like to think I said or meant. Yes, I'm a Christian and as one, of course, I'd like everyone else to be one because I think it is the right thing because I believe God's ways are better than man's ways, but I am well aware and completely IN AGREEMENT that it must be something EACH INDIVIDUAL chooses for themselves and CANNOT be FORCED upon anyone.

I have always stated, times too numerous to mention in fact, that if you don't like the way something is, then you lobby within the law to change it. Now, if people lobby within the law to change these things (pledge of allegiance, etc.) I have no gripe. I may not like the result of those efforts but I surely would not deny anyone the right to exercise their right to try to change it. It's no different than you (you) generalized voting your consicence than it is me voting mine.

And Snood, I'm right there with you on your post. Seems to me, if someone wants freedom from religion then they would just stay the heck away from it. I don't believe in Wicca but I don't run around trying to rid the word of it either. If someone mentions something that I don't like or agree with I have a choice. I engage in a conversation about it or not. If I don't respond, end of conversation. Ball's in their court......... Laughing

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Arella Mae wrote:

I have always stated, times too numerous to mention in fact, that if you don't like the way something is, then you lobby within the law to change it. Now, if people lobby within the law to change these things (pledge of allegiance, etc.) I have no gripe. I may not like the result of those efforts but I surely would not deny anyone the right to exercise their right to try to change it. It's no different than you (you) generalized voting your consicence than it is me voting mine.[/color]

What are your thoughts on NAMBLA (North Ameriacn Man Boy Love Association)? Do you support that organization lobbying to change child consent laws?

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maporsche wrote:

Arella Mae wrote:
I have always stated, times too numerous to mention in fact, that if you don't like the way something is, then you lobby within the law to change it. Now, if people lobby within the law to change these things (pledge of allegiance, etc.) I have no gripe. I may not like the result of those efforts but I surely would not deny anyone the right to exercise their right to try to change it. It's no different than you (you) generalized voting your consicence than it is me voting mine.[/color]

What are your thoughts on NAMBLA (North Ameriacn Man Boy Love Association)? Do you support that organization lobbying to change child consent laws?

This is, in my humble opinion, the most ridiculous question anyone on the face of this planet has ever asked me. Rolling Eyes

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Arella Mae wrote:

maporsche wrote:
Arella Mae wrote:
I have always stated, times too numerous to mention in fact, that if you don't like the way something is, then you lobby within the law to change it. Now, if people lobby within the law to change these things (pledge of allegiance, etc.) I have no gripe. I may not like the result of those efforts but I surely would not deny anyone the right to exercise their right to try to change it. It's no different than you (you) generalized voting your consicence than it is me voting mine.[/color]

What are your thoughts on NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association)? Do you support that organization lobbying to change child consent laws?

This is, in my humble opinion, the most ridiculous question anyone on the face of this planet has ever asked me.

Ridiculous because it's obvious from your previous statement that you support the rights of groups to lobby congress to change laws that they don't like.

OR

Ridiculous because you only want to allow those rights to Christians to lobby for changes in laws that they don't like, and everyone else is out of luck.

OR

Something else

Please keep in mind that NAMBLA does not support breaking any current laws, they are lobbying to get these laws changed (which you stated that you "have no gripe" with). You also said that you "surely would not deny anyone the right to exercise their right to try to change it." I think that "anyone" also includes those who disagree with the child-hood consent laws (am I right?)

I would appreciate you not ignoring this topic, as I truly would like to find out your thoughts here.

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Could you stop trying to act like you're conducting some kind of innocent interview to explore her "thoughts", and not just straight-up playing "gotcha" with Arella?

Do you think its not obvious to anyone reading this that anytime she doesn't answer in a way you consider "right", you're gonna jump right back in there berating her again?

Honestly maporsche - what are you trying to prove?

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