0
   

Freedom FROM religion

 
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 09:41 pm
Doktor S wrote:
Phoenix32890 wrote:
To me, freedom from religion would constitute:

No tax breaks for religious groups.

Remove the words. "under god" from the Pledge of Allegiance.

Christmas should not be a government holiday, but private companies could give their staff a day off if many of their employees celebrated Christmas.

No swearing on the bible in courts, or invocations in government ceremonies.

I have no problem with people practicing their religion in the private sphere; homes, houses of worship, and the like. I DO have a problem when the goverment gets involved, on any level.



This basically mirrors my opinions on the matter, so I will quote it again. Why are churches not taxed again? Churches are big business!

I would also add that any attempt to outlaw religion would lead down the same slippery slope that outlawing abortion would. Any shift of power away from the individual towards the state should be highly scrutinized before being allowed to exist. It is a fine balance between anarchy and a totalitarian state that must be maintained.


Are you also in favor of taxing all other (currently) tax free entities? Other tax free entities (universities , for instance) are BIG business too, and probably dwarf the churches in their locality in comparison.

Is it because you are simply in favor of government control of everything?
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 11:13 pm
echi wrote:
I give up, Mindo. Who's the bloody teacher?


LOL! If we tell you, you might want to drop out. And we don't want that to happen. The Final Exam is about to Start. We want you to stay till the Finish of class.
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 11:24 pm
You don't know, either. Do you?
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 11:28 pm
neologist wrote:
Mindy, I think you have confused religion with belief. The folks who have faith that Toyotas are better than Fords are hardly likely to defend that belief to the death.



Ah yes, but the folks who will only buy a Ford or a Toyota are practicing their religion.

So question; Does One have to defend something to the death before that thing is counted as a religion?
Because if this is true, then as we have stated before, all of the major institutionalized governments of the world are religions. Also, the jails and death rows of the worlds are full of nuns and clergy. LOL!
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 11:41 pm
I think liking pizza is a religion.
0 Replies
 
martybarker
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 11:59 pm
Kicky, I'd still like you even if I didn't like pizza!
0 Replies
 
Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 03:26 am
real life wrote:

Is it because you are simply in favor of government control of everything?

If this is what you have extrapolated from what I wrote, you really haven't been paying attention.
To quote my last post (the very one you replied to)
I wrote:

Any shift of power away from the individual towards the state should be highly scrutinized before being allowed to exist.

In the future, try reading before replying. Twice if need be.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 05:17 am
real life wrote:
Are you also in favor of taxing all other (currently) tax free entities? Other tax free entities (universities , for instance) are BIG business too, and probably dwarf the churches in their locality in comparison.


Large universites, those which would qualify as "big business," are almost all of them entities supported by state government, whose educational budgets are heavily subsidized by Federal revenues. Do you suggest that the state and Federal governments ought, in effect, to tax themselves? What few other large universities are not state-supported? Harvard, Columbia, Nortre Dame? The last named, of course, would be taxed under the previously proposed scheme as being part of the Catholic church. The two former institutions would have little problem securing the services of tax lawyers who could whittle their liabilites down to meaningless pittances. The likely effect of such a program would be to bankrupt small liberal arts colleges, which would include a host of conservative institutions affiliated with various religious sects. Your proposal makes little sense.

If churches were subject to taxation, either they would be taxed on the basis of extensive real estate and/or investment holdings, which would make them liable in the ordinary way of private organizations with substantial means, or they could be shown to be operating below the line of taxation, if not actually at a loss. It is hardly unreasonable to exempt the physical manifestations of certain groups preferred superstitions from taxation just because of the nature of the fervor with which those superstitions are adhered to.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 07:35 am
Arella Mae- I don't think that you have a complete understanding of the issue. I have no problem with people practicing their religion privately. I just don't want the government involved with religion, in any way.

If the churches don't pay taxes, then, in effect, all of us, whether we believe in your religion or not, are paying for your religion. Would you like to be forced to donate some of your hard earned money to an atheist group? Get it now?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 07:46 am
Mindonfire wrote:
neologist wrote:
Mindy, I think you have confused religion with belief. The folks who have faith that Toyotas are better than Fords are hardly likely to defend that belief to the death.



Ah yes, but the folks who will only buy a Ford or a Toyota are practicing their religion.

So question; Does One have to defend something to the death before that thing is counted as a religion?
Because if this is true, then as we have stated before, all of the major institutionalized governments of the world are religions. Also, the jails and death rows of the worlds are full of nuns and clergy. LOL!
BZZT!
You can't count patriotism on the same list as choice of breakfast cereal.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 07:52 am
kickycan wrote:
I think liking pizza is a religion.
That reminds me of the blasphemous pizza mass we used to conduct on Friday (sometimes Saturday or any other day) nights, substituting beer for the wine, of course.

Mea culpa!
Mea culpa!
Mea maxima culpa!
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 07:54 am
neologist wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
neologist wrote:
Mindy, I think you have confused religion with belief. The folks who have faith that Toyotas are better than Fords are hardly likely to defend that belief to the death.



Ah yes, but the folks who will only buy a Ford or a Toyota are practicing their religion.

So question; Does One have to defend something to the death before that thing is counted as a religion?
Because if this is true, then as we have stated before, all of the major institutionalized governments of the world are religions. Also, the jails and death rows of the worlds are full of nuns and clergy. LOL!
BZZT!
You can't count patriotism on the same list as choice of breakfast cereal.


LOL Try as you might you can't seperate the two


Definitions (Merriam Webster)

Patriotism: (n) : love for or devotion to one's country

Devotion: (n) 1 a : religious fervor : PIETY the act of devoting *devotion of time and energy* b : the fact or state of being ardently dedicated and loyal *her devotion to the cause* *filial devotion*
3 obsolete : the object of one's devotion
synonyms see FIDELITY


Religion: (n) 1 a : the state of a religious *a nun in her 20th year of religion* b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 07:55 am
kickycan wrote:
I think liking pizza is a religion.


It can be
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 08:00 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Arella Mae- I don't think that you have a complete understanding of the issue. I have no problem with people practicing their religion privately. I just don't want the government involved with religion, in any way.


To late for that. The government is already involved in a religion.

Phoenix32890 wrote:
If the churches don't pay taxes, then, in effect, all of us, whether we believe in your religion or not, are paying for your religion. Would you like to be forced to donate some of your hard earned money to an atheist group? Get it now?[/color][/b]


Likewise, whether they believe in your religion or not, they are paying for your religion. It's called taxes.

And, they already donate some of their hard earned money to atheist groups. It's called taxes.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 08:07 am
For those who would not think patriotism is equivalent to religion, I would dare them to try publicly burning their country's flag. (Have a good escape route planned in advance.)

Such degrees of emotional fervor do not apply to culinary choices.

Nevertheless, it is the practice of worshipping supernatural deities which is likely to fall into political disrepute. Do you think it might be because the religious leaders have backed so many wars?
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 08:48 am
What's supernatural is how long you can straddle a fence and still walk upright.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 10:23 am
Mindonfire wrote:
And, they already donate some of their hard earned money to atheist groups. It's called taxes.


I know i shouldn't encourage you to spout more drivel, but i'd be interested to know what athist groups there are that you allege are supported by taxes.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 11:01 am
Setanta wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
And, they already donate some of their hard earned money to atheist groups. It's called taxes.


I know i shouldn't encourage you to spout more drivel, but i'd be interested to know what athist groups there are that you allege are supported by taxes.

Well, I get social security.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 11:28 am
Theoretically, at least, you godless commie bum, you've already paid your money into the system.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 10:38 pm
Setanta wrote:
real life wrote:
Are you also in favor of taxing all other (currently) tax free entities? Other tax free entities (universities , for instance) are BIG business too, and probably dwarf the churches in their locality in comparison.


Large universites, those which would qualify as "big business," are almost all of them entities supported by state government, whose educational budgets are heavily subsidized by Federal revenues. Do you suggest that the state and Federal governments ought, in effect, to tax themselves? What few other large universities are not state-supported? Harvard, Columbia, Nortre Dame? The last named, of course, would be taxed under the previously proposed scheme as being part of the Catholic church. The two former institutions would have little problem securing the services of tax lawyers who could whittle their liabilites down to meaningless pittances. The likely effect of such a program would be to bankrupt small liberal arts colleges, which would include a host of conservative institutions affiliated with various religious sects. Your proposal makes little sense.

If churches were subject to taxation, either they would be taxed on the basis of extensive real estate and/or investment holdings, which would make them liable in the ordinary way of private organizations with substantial means, or they could be shown to be operating below the line of taxation, if not actually at a loss. It is hardly unreasonable to exempt the physical manifestations of certain groups preferred superstitions from taxation just because of the nature of the fervor with which those superstitions are adhered to.


I'm not proposing it, I was asking if DS would do so , in order to be consistent with his call for other tax exempt entities (churches) to be taxed.

I agree that it is the many small to medium sized liberal arts colleges that would be most affected.

There are a good number of other tax exempt entities, including libraries, charities, foundations, etc. I wonder if DS would tax them as well.
0 Replies
 
 

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