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Self- Immolation

 
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 09:19 pm
echi wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:
Yes, every belief system operates on some degree of faith. "Religion" is used to refer to those belief systems that promote reliance on non-reasoned faith.


What is "non-reasoned" faith? Do you think that groups of people are just doing things without reason?

"Non-reasoned" is the politically correct way to say "fear-inspired".


So, do you agree that religion promotes reliance on fear-inspired beliefs?
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 09:23 pm
echi wrote:
echi wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:
Yes, every belief system operates on some degree of faith. "Religion" is used to refer to those belief systems that promote reliance on non-reasoned faith.


What is "non-reasoned" faith? Do you think that groups of people are just doing things without reason?

"Non-reasoned" is the politically correct way to say "fear-inspired".


So, do you agree that religion promotes reliance on fear-inspired beliefs?


What doesn't? Governments do the same. What do you think the Law does. Is fear a good or bad thing?
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 10:24 pm
Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:
echi wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:
Yes, every belief system operates on some degree of faith. "Religion" is used to refer to those belief systems that promote reliance on non-reasoned faith.


What is "non-reasoned" faith? Do you think that groups of people are just doing things without reason?

"Non-reasoned" is the politically correct way to say "fear-inspired".


So, do you agree that religion promotes reliance on fear-inspired beliefs?


What doesn't? Governments do the same. What do you think the Law does. Is fear a good or bad thing?

Governments certainly can be very similar (consider nationalism), but they always reserve the right to use violence. Therefore, compared to religion (which must control the mind), governments rely far less on propaganda and allow much greater intellectual freedom.
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 11:22 pm
echi wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:
echi wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:
Yes, every belief system operates on some degree of faith. "Religion" is used to refer to those belief systems that promote reliance on non-reasoned faith.


What is "non-reasoned" faith? Do you think that groups of people are just doing things without reason?

"Non-reasoned" is the politically correct way to say "fear-inspired".


So, do you agree that religion promotes reliance on fear-inspired beliefs?


What doesn't? Governments do the same. What do you think the Law does. Is fear a good or bad thing?

Governments certainly can be very similar (consider nationalism), but they always reserve the right to use violence. Therefore, compared to religion (which must control the mind), governments rely far less on propaganda and allow much greater intellectual freedom.


That's funny. If you think that governments rely far less on propaganda and allow much greater intellectual freedom, then what gov't are you living under. Try thinking contrary to what your Gov't wants you to think and see how much "intellectual freedom" you really have.

As we have always stated, there is no difference between gov't and religion. If religion controls the mind, then gov'ts likewise. The difference is that because it is your government and you love it and believe in it, you are not aware that it is controlling your mind. Whatever you love or believe in, will control your mind. There is no way around it. Therefore, you have Islamist who love and believe in their religion and it controls them. You have Democracies who believe in their religion and it controls them. You have Christians who believe in their religion and it controls them. And you have Communists who believe in their religion and it controls them.

You are controlled by your loves and beliefs.
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 12:01 am
Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:
So, do you agree that religion promotes reliance on fear-inspired beliefs?


What doesn't? Governments do the same. What do you think the Law does. Is fear a good or bad thing?

Governments certainly can be very similar (consider nationalism), but they always reserve the right to use violence. Therefore, compared to religion (which must control the mind), governments rely far less on propaganda and allow much greater intellectual freedom.


That's funny. If you think that governments rely far less on propaganda and allow much greater intellectual freedom, then what gov't are you living under.
It's funny that you ignore my words. "Compared to religion" is the key phrase.
Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
Try thinking contrary to what your Gov't wants you to think and see how much "intellectual freedom" you really have.
The government is much more concerned with my behavior than with my thoughts.


As we have always stated, there is no difference between gov't and religion. If religion controls the mind, then gov'ts likewise.

There are definite similarities, yes. But there are also distinguishable differences, which is why we use different words to describe them.
Mindonfire wrote:
The difference is that because it is your government and you love it and believe in it, you are not aware that it is controlling your mind.
These are baseless assumptions. You do realize that, don't you?
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 10:49 am
echi wrote:
It's funny that you ignore my words. "Compared to religion" is the key phrase.


Maybe you don't understand or you can't see. We thought humans were the most intelligent species. Nevertheless, let us go back and take this slowly. Government is religion. Whatever you believe in, becomes your religion. Take a look at the definition of Religion

Definitions Merriam Webster:
Religion: (n) 1 a : the state of a religious *a nun in her 20th year of religion* b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

Now from the definition, One can see that a Religion is an institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices. This then means that one of the foundations of a religion is belief which can come in the form of personal beliefs or institutionalized beliefs. Lets us now take a look at Institutionalize.

Institutionalize: (trans vrb) 1 : to make into an institution : give character of an institution to *institutionalized housing*; especially : to incorporate into a structured and often highly formalized system *institutionalized values* 2 : to put in the care of an institution *institutionalize alcoholics*

Now, to Institutionalize means to make into an institution, give character of an institution to, or to incorporate into a structured and often highly formalized system. Let us take a look at what an Institution is

Institution: (n) 1 : an act of instituting : ESTABLISHMENT 2 a : a significant practice, relationship, or organization in a society or culture *the institution of marriage*; also : something or someone firmly associated with a place or thing *she has become an institution in the theater* b : an established organization or corporation (as a bank or university) especially of a public character; also : ASYLUM 4

From the definitions, we see that an Institution is also an ESTABLISHMENT, or a significant practice, relationship, or organization in a society or culture . Now look back at the definition of Religion and you will see that a religion is also a Practice. In fact, it is an Institutionalized Practice, or the Practice of an Institution. Now, let us look at what an Establishment and Organization are .

Establishment: (n) 1 : something established: as a : a settled arrangement; especially : a code of laws b : ESTABLISHED CHURCH c : a permanent civil or military organization d : a place of business or residence with its furnishings and staff e : a public or private institution 2 : an established order of society: as a often capitalized : a group of social, economic, and political leaders who form a ruling class (as of a nation) b often capitalized : a controlling group *the literary establishment*
3 a : the act of establishing b : the state of being established

Organization: (n) 1 a : the act or process of organizing or of being organized b : the condition or manner of being organized 2 a : ASSOCIATION, SOCIETY *charitable organizations* b : an administrative and functional structure (as a business or a political party); also : the personnel of such a structure

Now, from these definitions you should see that a religion is not limited to the people who visit churches and mosques. But it also encompasses governments, its political groups, and your societies.


echi wrote:
The government is much more concerned with my behavior than with my thoughts.


LOL! We thought that you were more intelligent than this. Question: Where does your behavior come from?


Mindonfire wrote:
The difference is that because it is your government and you love it and believe in it, you are not aware that it is controlling your mind.
echi wrote:
These are baseless assumptions. You do realize that, don't you?


They are assumptions huh? We guess Iraq can't be used as Exhibit A. We guess that your fervor and eagerness to invade a country which was not directly connected to your misfortune was not caused by your love and belief in your government or religion. The evidence is overwhelming Echi. You may be in a worse state of denial that our Christian brothers. LOL!
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 12:36 pm
Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:
It's funny that you ignore my words. "Compared to religion" is the key phrase.


Maybe you don't understand or you can't see. We thought humans were the most intelligent species. Nevertheless, let us go back and take this slowly. Government is religion. Whatever you believe in, becomes your religion. Take a look at the definition of Religion
Like I told you before, "Governments certainly can be very similar (consider nationalism)".

Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:
The government is much more concerned with my behavior than with my thoughts.


LOL! We thought that you were more intelligent than this. Question: Where does your behavior come from?
Please don't laugh at me.

The government is definitely concerned with my thoughts; you and I have no argument there. But, government, unlike religion, retains and exercises the option of physical force to control the population. Religion does not retain that option and is, therefore, much more invested in controlling a person's thoughts. This is the main difference, as I see it. I do not criticize you for making this comparison, as the two are indeed very similar and often complimentary. Both are bureaucratic. Both are hierarchical. Both rely on methods of population control.
Corporations, often, are also very similar.


Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
The difference is that because it is your government and you love it and believe in it, you are not aware that it is controlling your mind.
These are baseless assumptions. You do realize that, don't you?


They are assumptions huh?
They are baseless assumptions.

Mindonfire wrote:
We guess Iraq can't be used as Exhibit A. We guess that your fervor and eagerness to invade a country which was not directly connected to your misfortune was not caused by your love and belief in your government or religion. The evidence is overwhelming Echi. You may be in a worse state of denial that our Christian brothers. LOL!
You assume that I support/supported the Iraq invasion.
You assume that I love my government.
You assume that I believe in (have confidence in) my government.
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 02:57 pm
echi wrote:
Like I told you before, "Governments certainly can be very similar (consider nationalism)".


Similar? They are so similar that they are practically indistinguishable. They are the same.


echi wrote:
The government is definitely concerned with my thoughts; you and I have no argument there. But, government, unlike religion, retains and exercises the option of physical force to control the population. Religion does not retain that option and is, therefore, much more invested in controlling a person's thoughts. This is the main difference, as I see it. I do not criticize you for making this comparison, as the two are indeed very similar and often complimentary. Both are bureaucratic. Both are hierarchical. Both rely on methods of population control.
Corporations, often, are also very similar.
echi wrote:
They are baseless assumptions.


No they are not. All are based on what the majority has done or not done.


echi wrote:
You assume that I support/supported the Iraq invasion.
You assume that I love my government.
You assume that I believe in (have confidence in) my government.


Yes, because the majority did
Yes, because the majority does
Yes, because the majority does. If the answer is no, then you must be in the majority.
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 04:41 pm
Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:

The government is definitely concerned with my thoughts; you and I have no argument there. But, government, unlike religion, retains and exercises the option of physical force to control the population. Religion does not retain that option and is, therefore, much more invested in controlling a person's thoughts. This is the main difference, as I see it. I do not criticize you for making this comparison, as the two are indeed very similar and often complimentary. Both are bureaucratic. Both are hierarchical. Both rely on methods of population control.
Corporations, often, are also very similar.


And who gives the government that option? Is it not the people? The government retains that option because as part of the religion or belief, the people believe that the established government has the option to use physical force to control those who do not think or believe like the majority. In other words, those whose religions are different. For example, a person who believes that robbery is right is not of the same religious persuasion of the majority who believe that robbery is wrong. Therefore, this majority has given the heads of their religion the right to physically control theses individuals who have adverse religious views. This is where you get your LAWS.

Now if the majority believed that robbery is not wrong, then it would be reflected in the actions and Laws. This then means that those who were caught in the act of robbery would not be considered criminals. Instead, they would be considered as proper by the religion. And if considered proper, they would not be incarcerated.

So in actuality, in your world, religion has retained that option of physical force. The only difference is that you all have decided to place that option in a visible centralized institution that is called Government. And this Government has different branches which are used to enforce the religious beliefs of the people. (Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not murder, An eye for an eye, etc.. )
You like to think of government as a form of religion; I tend to think of religion as a type of government. [...words words words...]

Mindonfire wrote:
Democratic principles can be seen everywhere. Does this mean that everything is "democracy"? In that sense, the word is useless.

Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:

They are baseless assumptions.


No they are not. All are based on what the majority has done or not done.
Fine. They are all inaccurate assumptions.
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 02:30 pm
echi wrote:

You like to think of government as a form of religion; I tend to think of religion as a type of government. [...words words words...]

LOL! And this is why you will never understand the Bible. There seems to be no difference between you and the Christian who is presented with the mountains of evidence which point to evolution and yet still insists that there is no evolution.

echi wrote:
Democratic principles can be seen everywhere. Does this mean that everything is "democracy"? In that sense, the word is useless.


Everything is a Democracy. You need to study the definition of a Democracy.

echi wrote:

Fine. They are all inaccurate assumptions.


We can accept that. You must be one of the few who is in the minority.
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 03:22 pm
Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:

You like to think of government as a form of religion; I tend to think of religion as a type of government. [...words words words...]


LOL! And this is why you will never understand the Bible. There seems to be no difference between you and the Christian who is presented with the mountains of evidence which point to evolution and yet still insists that there is no evolution.


What? I thought we were seeing eye-to-eye for a minute. You presented this idea of there being no difference between government and religion. Now you're telling me that government is religion, but religion is not government? What's the big difference?
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 03:31 pm
echi wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:

You like to think of government as a form of religion; I tend to think of religion as a type of government. [...words words words...]


LOL! And this is why you will never understand the Bible. There seems to be no difference between you and the Christian who is presented with the mountains of evidence which point to evolution and yet still insists that there is no evolution.


What? I thought we were seeing eye-to-eye for a minute. You presented this idea of there being no difference between government and religion. Now you're telling me that government is religion, but religion is not government? What's the big difference?


There is no difference. That is the point.
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 03:34 pm
What was the point of your arrogance, then?

Mindonfire wrote:
LOL! And this is why you will never understand the Bible. There seems to be no difference between you and the Christian who is presented with the mountains of evidence which point to evolution and yet still insists that there is no evolution.
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 06:59 pm
echi wrote:
What was the point of your arrogance, then?

Mindonfire wrote:
LOL! And this is why you will never understand the Bible. There seems to be no difference between you and the Christian who is presented with the mountains of evidence which point to evolution and yet still insists that there is no evolution.


Well, we apologize. We misunderstood you.
0 Replies
 
 

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