Self- Immolation

Mindonfire wrote:

xingu wrote:
echi wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
And? Does creating humans nature mean that God forced Adam and Eve to break the commandments?

Certainly not. Why would God have to force them to do what was already in their nature?

Quote:
Does the creation of the gun force people to murder?

This question does not relate to my argument. (Someone help me out, here. What kind of fallacy is this?)

This looks like a strawman. A strawman argument "is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

MOF asks the question;

Quote:
"Does creating humans nature mean that God forced Adam and Eve to break the commandments?"

Yes, it does. Human nature has the element of curiosity. Curiosity is what leads us to ask, explore and experiment. It leads us to seek knowledge. Therefore we will, in our quest to seek knowledge, violate laws; any and all laws. In that way we learn form experience. How many times, as a child, do we test our parents rules by breaking them? How many times does science test its laws to see if they work, how they work, and why they work. The minute God gave us curiosity he gave us the means to break any and all laws. If God desired us to be obedient slaves he would never had given us curiosity, the desire to find knowledge.

God would have to be very, very stupid if he would think we would do otherwise. That's why I'm always amazed at those who say God wrote the Bible. Why would God want to make himself look so stupid?

So go and kill someone and then go into a court of law and tell the judge that your curiousity led you to kill because you wanted to know how a dead person looks and see if you are not laughed out of court. Curiosity does not translate to certainty. Just because you are curious does not mean that you are going to be foolish and disobedient. That's why God also equipped you with discipline, self-control, and the ability to make wise decisions if you so choose.

You mean go kill someone the way your God commanded his chosen to kill. Slaughter children the way your God commanded. Considering the number of innocents slaughter by your God I'm surprised you condemn murder. You may as well condemn your God.

You said curiosity does not translate to certainty. In some cases it does. The quest for knowledge is a certainty. What was A&E's sin? Eating from the Tree of Knowledge in violation of God's order. The quest for knowledge is greater in mankind than the orders, even from a God, to remain ignorant. God should have understood this when he gave human nature to mankind. If he didn't then he was stupid; stupid about his creation and stupid to think that orders would override the curiosity he gave them. If not stupid it certainly shows he was not all-knowing. God learned something from this.

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God certainly before he even created the heavens and the earth knew that Adam and Eve would sin.

God also saw the glory and sinless obedience of Christ Jesus' walk.

It seems you are isolating this story rather than looking at the continuity and scope of the whole book.

...world without end...

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Mindonfire wrote:

mesquite wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
mesquite wrote:
echi wrote:
I don't mean any disrespect, but is that it? Is that the best plan God could come up with to encourage his most beloved creations to repent? Two thousand years later and it seems to have not worked out too well. I tried real hard for about ten years to understand the sense in this story. Needless to say, I didn't find any. Did I miss something?

"Beloved creations"? Where do you get that? Right from the beginning God set up a sting operation on Adam and Eve, and then when they innocent as they are, fall for the trap, future he sentences them and their offspring to punishment in perpetuity.

Who said that they were innocent? How did God force them to break the commandment? How did God put them in a trap?

They had no knowledge of good and evil. How much more innocent can you get. Without that knowledge they could not understand that breaking the commandment not to eat the fruit was wrong. And just to make sure that his trap would succeed, God allowed the serpent to tempt them with the truth.

That's why the punishment was so severe. They did know right from wrong, good from evil.

I take it that was another facetious comment?

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Self demolition.

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mesquite wrote:

Mindonfire wrote:
mesquite wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
mesquite wrote:
echi wrote:
I don't mean any disrespect, but is that it? Is that the best plan God could come up with to encourage his most beloved creations to repent? Two thousand years later and it seems to have not worked out too well. I tried real hard for about ten years to understand the sense in this story. Needless to say, I didn't find any. Did I miss something?

"Beloved creations"? Where do you get that? Right from the beginning God set up a sting operation on Adam and Eve, and then when they innocent as they are, fall for the trap, future he sentences them and their offspring to punishment in perpetuity.

Who said that they were innocent? How did God force them to break the commandment? How did God put them in a trap?

They had no knowledge of good and evil. How much more innocent can you get. Without that knowledge they could not understand that breaking the commandment not to eat the fruit was wrong. And just to make sure that his trap would succeed, God allowed the serpent to tempt them with the truth.

That's why the punishment was so severe. They did know right from wrong, good from evil.

I take it that was another facetious comment?

They're all facetious comments when he digs himself a hole so deep he can't get out.

So A&E knew right from wrong and good from evil BEFORE they ate the apple. I guess MOF has a Bible that's different from all others.

Quote:

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

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xingu wrote:

mesquite wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
mesquite wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
mesquite wrote:
echi wrote:
I don't mean any disrespect, but is that it? Is that the best plan God could come up with to encourage his most beloved creations to repent? Two thousand years later and it seems to have not worked out too well. I tried real hard for about ten years to understand the sense in this story. Needless to say, I didn't find any. Did I miss something?

"Beloved creations"? Where do you get that? Right from the beginning God set up a sting operation on Adam and Eve, and then when they innocent as they are, fall for the trap, future he sentences them and their offspring to punishment in perpetuity.

Who said that they were innocent? How did God force them to break the commandment? How did God put them in a trap?

They had no knowledge of good and evil. How much more innocent can you get. Without that knowledge they could not understand that breaking the commandment not to eat the fruit was wrong. And just to make sure that his trap would succeed, God allowed the serpent to tempt them with the truth.

That's why the punishment was so severe. They did know right from wrong, good from evil.

I take it that was another facetious comment?

They're all facetious comments when he digs himself a hole so deep he can't get out.

So A&E knew right from wrong and good from evil BEFORE they ate the apple. I guess MOF has a Bible that's different from all others.

Quote:
Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

LOL! Oh Xingu our good friend, you are the one digging yourself into a deeper hole. We have the same Bible. The only difference is that we know how to read and comprehend ours and you only can read yours.

Now look at the verse that we have posted and pay attention and you might learn something.

The common misconception amongst those who do not know the Bible is that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of right from wrong or good, bad, or evil. If you will examine Gen 3:6, you will see that this is wrong. Before the woman ate of the fruit of the tree, it says that she saw that the tree was good for food. Now, in order to see something as good, One must know that there is a bad or evil. So, if she saw that the tree was good for food, then she must have had knowledge of other trees which were considered bad or evil for food. Therefore, the woman and Adam had knowledge of Good and Bad or Evil. And like we said, this is the reason why the punishment is so severe.

Now if you would like to continue, we can. But maybe you should first digest that bit of revelation.

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Mindonfire wrote:

xingu wrote:
Quote:
Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

LOL! Oh Xingu our good friend, you are the one digging yourself into a deeper hole. We have the same Bible. The only difference is that we know how to read and comprehend ours and you only can read yours.

Now look at the verse that we have posted and pay attention and you might learn something.

The common misconception amongst those who do not know the Bible is that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of right from wrong or good, bad, or evil. If you will examine Gen 3:6, you will see that this is wrong. Before the woman ate of the fruit of the tree, it says that she saw that the tree was good for food. Now, in order to see something as good, One must know that there is a bad or evil. So, if she saw that the tree was good for food, then she must have had knowledge of other trees which were considered bad or evil for food. Therefore, the woman and Adam had knowledge of Good and Bad or Evil. And like we said, this is the reason why the punishment is so severe.

Now if you would like to continue, we can. But maybe you should first digest that bit of revelation.

MOF, you surely cannot be suggesting that the usage of good in gen3:26 "good for food" (suitable for food) is the same useage as good in Gen 3:22 "to know good and evil" which is clearly used as a moral good (right or wrong).

If Adam and Eve had prior knowledge of moral good and evil, then there would have been no point to

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

which is before the eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, and no point to

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: ...

which is after the fact.

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MOF wrote:

Before the woman ate of the fruit of the tree, it says that she saw that the tree was good for food.

Ya, when I look a lasagna I see it's good for food as well but I don't see it as morally good or evil. There is a difference between the meaning of the word good as in good food vs. good as in what's right vs. wrong.

How about this; A&E saw the tree as edible for food knowing it would not make them sick. Would you say A&E's ability to distinguish between edible and inedible food is the same as distinguishing between good and evil in behavior?

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mesquite wrote:

MOF, you surely cannot be suggesting that the usage of good in gen3:26 "good for food" (suitable for food) is the same useage as good in Gen 3:22 "to know good and evil" which is clearly used as a moral good (right or wrong).

If Adam and Eve had prior knowledge of moral good and evil, then there would have been no point to

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

which is before the eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, and no point to

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: ...

which is after the fact.

Well since your argument was that they had no knowledge of good and evil, we had to refute that point. Adam and Eve did have knowledge of Good and evil as we have just pointed out. In case you forgot what you stated, here is your quote:

mesquite wrote:

They had no knowledge of good and evil. How much more innocent can you get. Without that knowledge they could not understand that breaking the commandment not to eat the fruit was wrong. And just to make sure that his trap would succeed, God allowed the serpent to tempt them with the truth.

Now since you all are unable to or refuse to see that connection, then let us continue. Let us look at the verse again:

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Now, if you will continue to examine the verse, it states that the woman saw that the tree was to be desired to make one wise. Now let us look at the definition of "Desire"

Definitions Merriam Webster
Desire: (n) 1 : conscious impulse toward something that promises enjoyment or satisfaction in its attainment
2 a : LONGING, CRAVING b : sexual urge or appetite
3 : a usually formal request or petition for some action4 : something desired

Question, Where does desire come from? If they had no knowledge, how does she know that the tree is a tree that is wanted to make one wise?

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Xingu, Mesquite Yoohoo Where did you guys go? We were just getting warmed up. Don't run. Please come back and finish the debate.

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Mindonfire,

Where are you going with your argument?

You read it one way, and other posters read it another.
Regardless of which interpretion is used, this story (if taken literally) is a logical disaster.

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echi wrote:

Mindonfire,

Where are you going with your argument?

You read it one way, and other posters read it another.
Regardless of which interpretion is used, this story (if taken literally) is a logical disaster.

LOL! And how is it a logical disaster? You have no idea what it is even talking about. We love to here all of you professionals who claim to know the Bible. As you can see your friends are mighty quiet. There arguments against the Bible are breaking down.

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How is it a logical disaster?

Any number of ways. . . It all depends on which interpretation you want to look at.

Do you have a favorite?

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Mindonfire wrote:

neologist wrote:
mesquite wrote:
And not answered.
Trinitarians have a hard time with this. Perhaps it is because sacrifice in the days of the OT was dedicated to God. Jesus did indeed sacrifice himself to his father on our behalf because, as Paul noted, he became both king and priest (Hebrews 4:6) This makes it awkward to claim that Jesus was, in fact, God.

LOL! Who reads the Old Testament these days. What's in the Old Testament does not apply to today. We are under a better covenant. Christ did away with the Old Testament. Etc.... Isn't that the common posture of today's Christians?

Sure is, unless your talking about homosexuality or something, then you'll have to break out the OT.

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True that, maporsche. But let's stick with one absurdity at a time, eh?

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echi wrote:

True that, maporsche. But let's stick with one absurdity at a time, eh?

Sorry, I posted that before I saw how bad this thread had become.

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echi wrote:

How is it a logical disaster?

Any number of ways. . . It all depends on which interpretation you want to look at.

Do you have a favorite?

Well, you say that it is a logical disaster in any number of ways, but you still havent pointed out one of those ways. Your friend were trying to, but if you look at their arguments, they were being refuted. So, naturally as people who do not want to see the truth, they run and hide. So now, let us try you. Shew us your evidence of a logical disaster in reference to Adam and Eve?

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maporsche wrote:

echi wrote:
True that, maporsche. But let's stick with one absurdity at a time, eh?

Sorry, I posted that before I saw how bad this thread had become.

LOL! It only turned bad when you entered.

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Mindonfire,

I read the entire original post twice. I found it good food for thought.

I'm not religious so I did only 'hear' what I wanted to hear, and I won't comment on any thing to do with God, Jesus, Christians, Muslims, whathaveyou.

I think there is an interesting point in the OP that applies to people regardless of whether one believes in Jesus or any of that.

The idea of sacrifice as something which can be beneficial and used with intelligence. I prefer the word 'renounce' to 'sacrifice'.

It is quite common for folks to think of 'sacrifice' or 'renounciation' as a bad thing. 'Sacrifice' in particular because of old associations to the word itself. People see it as an unwilling giving up, a punishment of sorts. Something perhaps that is worth doing or needs to be done (for whatever reasons to them personally) but not because they want to! 'Can't somebody else do it? Can't I have it ALL?'
Nah, you really can't. Smile

Every man woman and child, IMHO, has the possibility to impact the world as Jesus did. What we choose to embrace and reject in our lives, what we choose as our guiding principles in life, our ultimate priorities...WILL impact others for good or ill.

And I don't think you can avoid sacrifice. Even if you choose to not 'choose' and see it as an outside force (God, Soceity, or anything you decide really) bearing the weight...you will become a sacrifice yourself! Perhaps parts of you that are very precious, too.

MOF, I understand your belief system is far different than mine, so correct me if I am seeing similiarities and ideas that are not there. Smile

To me, your post is a good refresher about self-responsibility and self-discipline.

take care

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Mindonfire wrote:

echi wrote:
How is it a logical disaster?

Any number of ways. . . It all depends on which interpretation you want to look at.

Do you have a favorite?

Well, you say that it is a logical disaster in any number of ways, but you still havent pointed out one of those ways. Your friend were trying to, but if you look at their arguments, they were being refuted. So, naturally as people who do not want to see the truth, they run and hide. So now, let us try you. Shew us your evidence of a logical disaster in reference to Adam and Eve?

I'm looking forward to it.

This "Adam and Eve" story that you keep referring to can be interpreted many different ways (as I have already made clear), and each of them can be very easily exposed as a logical absurdity.

Now, I am willing to do this for free, you understand, so I am not about to go down the entire list, exposing every single possible interpretation of this story, only to find out that you have made up a brand new version. Therefore, all I ask of you (for the second time) is to select the version that you would like to have me destroy.

Simple.

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