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Self- Immolation

 
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Oct, 2006 10:44 pm
flushd wrote:
Mindonfire,

I read the entire original post twice. I found it good food for thought.

I'm not religious so I did only 'hear' what I wanted to hear, and I won't comment on any thing to do with God, Jesus, Christians, Muslims, whathaveyou.

I think there is an interesting point in the OP that applies to people regardless of whether one believes in Jesus or any of that.

The idea of sacrifice as something which can be beneficial and used with intelligence. I prefer the word 'renounce' to 'sacrifice'.

It is quite common for folks to think of 'sacrifice' or 'renounciation' as a bad thing. 'Sacrifice' in particular because of old associations to the word itself. People see it as an unwilling giving up, a punishment of sorts. Something perhaps that is worth doing or needs to be done (for whatever reasons to them personally) but not because they want to! 'Can't somebody else do it? Can't I have it ALL?'
Nah, you really can't. Smile

Every man woman and child, IMHO, has the possibility to impact the world as Jesus did. What we choose to embrace and reject in our lives, what we choose as our guiding principles in life, our ultimate priorities...WILL impact others for good or ill.

And I don't think you can avoid sacrifice. Even if you choose to not 'choose' and see it as an outside force (God, Soceity, or anything you decide really) bearing the weight...you will become a sacrifice yourself! Perhaps parts of you that are very precious, too.

MOF, I understand your belief system is far different than mine, so correct me if I am seeing similiarities and ideas that are not there. Smile

To me, your post is a good refresher about self-responsibility and self-discipline.

take care


Good day

Actually if you keep reading, you will see that there isn't much difference in belief systems. The problem today is that a bunch of ignorant, unlearned and untutored individuals have hijacked the Bible and have manipulated it for their own personal gain. These who have hijacked it do not even really know who or what God is. They also have no idea, who or what Jesus is or what it means to believe in him. The Bible is a terribly complex book. It is written in code, but everything in it describes all the major events that occur in the world. It tells you all about the cataclysmic events which periodically come upon the world. So keep reading and feel free to ask questions if you like.
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Oct, 2006 08:11 am
echi wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:
How is it a logical disaster?

Any number of ways. . . It all depends on which interpretation you want to look at.

Do you have a favorite?


Well, you say that it is a logical disaster in any number of ways, but you still havent pointed out one of those ways. Your friend were trying to, but if you look at their arguments, they were being refuted. So, naturally as people who do not want to see the truth, they run and hide. So now, let us try you. Shew us your evidence of a logical disaster in reference to Adam and Eve?


I'm looking forward to it.

This "Adam and Eve" story that you keep referring to can be interpreted many different ways (as I have already made clear), and each of them can be very easily exposed as a logical absurdity.

Now, I am willing to do this for free, you understand, so I am not about to go down the entire list, exposing every single possible interpretation of this story, only to find out that you have made up a brand new version. Therefore, all I ask of you (for the second time) is to select the version that you would like to have me destroy.

Simple.


If you have been following the thread, maybe you can continue from where your friends left off?
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Oct, 2006 09:51 am
Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:
This "Adam and Eve" story that you keep referring to can be interpreted many different ways (as I have already made clear), and each of them can be very easily exposed as a logical absurdity.

Now, I am willing to do this for free, you understand, so I am not about to go down the entire list, exposing every single possible interpretation of this story, only to find out that you have made up a brand new version. Therefore, all I ask of you (for the second time) is to select the version that you would like to have me destroy.

Simple.


If you have been following the thread, maybe you can continue from where your friends left off?


Maybe you don't know what you believe.

Maybe you're not secure enough in your beliefs to put them on the table for everyone to see.

Maybe my "friends" decided it was pointless conversing with you for those very reasons.

Maybe it's too much to ask you to describe your basic beliefs on this story. That's fine. Why don't you start off with something smaller, then? You can pick where you want to start. . . anywhere at all. . . and then we can go from there. Do you think you can do that?
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Oct, 2006 11:33 pm
echi wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:
This "Adam and Eve" story that you keep referring to can be interpreted many different ways (as I have already made clear), and each of them can be very easily exposed as a logical absurdity.

Now, I am willing to do this for free, you understand, so I am not about to go down the entire list, exposing every single possible interpretation of this story, only to find out that you have made up a brand new version. Therefore, all I ask of you (for the second time) is to select the version that you would like to have me destroy.

Simple.


If you have been following the thread, maybe you can continue from where your friends left off?


Maybe you don't know what you believe.


You see that is the difference between you and us. You only believe, we know.


echi wrote:
Maybe you're not secure enough in your beliefs to put them on the table for everyone to see.


Again, One does not have to believe when One knows.

echi wrote:
Maybe my "friends" decided it was pointless conversing with you for those very reasons.


Your friends decided it was pointless because we were systematically dissecting and dismantling their arguments. It is pointless to continue to argue if you know that your arguments are being destroyed. Who can blame them. At least they were wise enough to quit before they would have to come face to face with the truth. That's if you can call running from the truth wise. LOL!


echi wrote:
Maybe it's too much to ask you to describe your basic beliefs on this story. That's fine. Why don't you start off with something smaller, then? You can pick where you want to start. . . anywhere at all. . . and then we can go from there. Do you think you can do that?



You wanted to prove that all the interpretations of the Adam and Eve story were absurd and logical disasters. You placed the challange. So, here is your chance. You said that there are many interpretations. Well, bring one. We suggested that you continue where the others left off, but you choose not to. It makes us no difference.
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Oct, 2006 11:51 pm
I much prefer to focus on the one that you know to be the truth.

I'm sure that makes sense to you, doesn't it?

You wouldn't want me to waste your time refuting what you already know is crap, would you?

So, which version is the truth? If you're too shy to say, then perhaps you can provide me with a LINK. That would be fine.
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Oct, 2006 06:04 pm
echi wrote:
I much prefer to focus on the one that you know to be the truth.

I'm sure that makes sense to you, doesn't it?

You wouldn't want me to waste your time refuting what you already know is crap, would you?

So, which version is the truth? If you're too shy to say, then perhaps you can provide me with a LINK. That would be fine.


LOL! We are only aware of one version, and that is the version that is in the KJV. Which version are you referring to?
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Oct, 2006 06:37 pm
KJV? Okay, good. That's a start.

Now, I just need to know which interpretation you would like me to consider.

Like, is there a certain church or something?

Or, am I to consider each and every word to be the absolute, literal, historical truth?
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Oct, 2006 11:26 pm
echi wrote:
KJV? Okay, good. That's a start.

Now, I just need to know which interpretation you would like me to consider.

Like, is there a certain church or something?

Or, am I to consider each and every word to be the absolute, literal, historical truth?


Just the OKJV. Here is the interpretation to help you.

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Genesis 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Genesis 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou?

Genesis 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I [was] naked; and I hid myself.

Genesis 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou [wast] naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest [to be] with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What [is] this [that] thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;

Genesis 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Genesis 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Oct, 2006 02:16 am
Mindonfire,

Hey, thanks!

Since you didn't say otherwise, I am assuming you believe this to be the absolute, literal, historical truth. (If not, please let me know.)
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Oct, 2006 02:11 pm
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?


Present evidence for the LORD God.
Present evidence for a talking serpent.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Oct, 2006 04:04 pm
This could get to be interesting. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Nov, 2006 02:37 pm
echi wrote:
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?


Present evidence for the LORD God.
Present evidence for a talking serpent.


LOL!

Definitions Merriam Webster
Serpent: (n) 1 a archaic : a noxious creature that creeps, hisses, or stings b : SNAKE 2 : DEVIL 1 3 : a treacherous person

Snake: (n) 1 : any of numerous limbless scaled reptiles (suborder Serpentes syn. Ophidia) with a long tapering body and with salivary glands often modified to produce venom which is injected through grooved or tubular fangs
2 : a worthless or treacherous fellow
3 : something (as a plumber's snake) resembling a snake
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Nov, 2006 03:18 pm
Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?


Present evidence for the LORD God.
Present evidence for a talking serpent.


LOL!

Definitions Merriam Webster
Serpent: (n) 1 a archaic : a noxious creature that creeps, hisses, or stings b : SNAKE 2 : DEVIL 1 3 : a treacherous person

Snake: (n) 1 : any of numerous limbless scaled reptiles (suborder Serpentes syn. Ophidia) with a long tapering body and with salivary glands often modified to produce venom which is injected through grooved or tubular fangs
2 : a worthless or treacherous fellow
3 : something (as a plumber's snake) resembling a snake



[Definitions require LINKS.]
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Nov, 2006 06:26 pm
http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/laughing1.gif
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Nov, 2006 09:37 pm
echi wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
echi wrote:
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?


Present evidence for the LORD God.
Present evidence for a talking serpent.


LOL!

Definitions Merriam Webster
Serpent: (n) 1 a archaic : a noxious creature that creeps, hisses, or stings b : SNAKE 2 : DEVIL 1 3 : a treacherous person

Snake: (n) 1 : any of numerous limbless scaled reptiles (suborder Serpentes syn. Ophidia) with a long tapering body and with salivary glands often modified to produce venom which is injected through grooved or tubular fangs
2 : a worthless or treacherous fellow
3 : something (as a plumber's snake) resembling a snake



[Definitions require LINKS.]


LOL! No Problem
Serpent:---> Serpent

Snake:-----> Snake
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Nov, 2006 01:33 am
Interesting.

I had never seen that definition of "serpent".




Evidence accepted!
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Nov, 2006 11:27 am
When using translated text, are alternate useages of a word in the translated to language valid?

I would think that when evaluating translated text, one should stay with the definition that applied to the useage in the original language.
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Nov, 2006 01:31 pm
I agree, mesquite. However, I have agreed to consider whatever interpretation MOF presents.

Quote:
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?


We now have a treacherous person, made by the "LORD God", asking the woman if "God" told her not to eat of every tree of the garden.

Evidence for the "LORD God" will be along, shortly (I hope).

Really, this whole thing would go a lot faster if MOF would simply describe his/her/their own belief in his/her/their own words. But, whatever. I'm in no hurry.
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Nov, 2006 03:23 pm
mesquite wrote:
When using translated text, are alternate useages of a word in the translated to language valid?

I would think that when evaluating translated text, one should stay with the definition that applied to the useage in the original language.


LOL! So you are tired of watching on the sidelines. Have you decided to come back and play? Stay a while and stop running off. You might see something which others do not see.
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Nov, 2006 03:28 pm
echi wrote:
I agree, mesquite. However, I have agreed to consider whatever interpretation MOF presents.

Quote:
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?


We now have a treacherous person, made by the "LORD God", asking the woman if "God" told her not to eat of every tree of the garden.

Evidence for the "LORD God" will be along, shortly (I hope).

Really, this whole thing would go a lot faster if MOF would simply describe his/her/their own belief in his/her/their own words. But, whatever. I'm in no hurry.


The evidence of God has always been in front of your face.
0 Replies
 
 

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