1
   

Multiple Shootings at Amish SchoolHouse

 
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 05:58 am
Miller wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Aidan,
It is not about what colour or size of font someone uses. It is more about arrogance and lack of respect for fellow posters. Most have asked that the fonts not be used as it takes away from, not adds to, the discussion. It covers many more pages to go through.

The reason only matters because the member has lied about why it is being done. He had denied having given particular reasons. We have had different reasons given...none of which make sense.

Many poster, now and then, use colour, emphasis, smileys etc. in their posts. They are not, however, obsessive about it. I suppose it is our own fault for not just ignoring this member. Personally, I think he does it to purposely piss people off.[/quote

[b]If you're stressed and depressed by David's post, why don't you scrol past them, instead of reading them?[/[/b]



Why don't you learn to quote properly. Did you have anything worthwhile to say?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 07:28 am
http://i9.tinypic.com/450nyus.jpg

Clarence Page in todayƄs Chicago Tribune: The amazing virtue of forgiveness

Quote:
WASHINGTON -- To err is human, to forgive divine, wrote the poet Alexander Pope. I could not agree more. To forgive is divine. It is also next to impossible.

Yet even in today's world torn by tales of eye-for-an-eye retribution, some people manage to pull it off with amazing grace.

Two news stories offer contrasting, yet similarly illuminating, lessons in the value of that most demanding virtue, the virtue of forgiveness.

One lesson comes from the Amish of rural Pennsylvania. The other comes from a couple of street gangs in a public housing development in Washington.

On Oct. 2, a deranged gunman burst into a one-room schoolhouse in the Amish community of Nickel Mines, Pa. He lined up 11 young girls and shot each of them, killing five, before taking his own life.

Witnesses say the oldest girl, 13-year-old Marian Fisher, bravely said, "Shoot me first" in an attempt to buy time for the younger students.

Then, her 11-year-old sister, Barbie, who would survive with wounds in her shoulder, hand and leg, said, "Shoot me next."

The girls' families and their Amish community responded to that breathtaking violence with acts that can only be called extraordinary, at least by those of us who are not Amish. As they grieved, the Amish mounted a horse-and-buggy caravan to visit the family of the shooter with offers of food and condolences. In their Pennsylvania Dutch dialect, all deaths are "Gottes Wille," God's will, the Amish said. The killer's family members are victims too.

As painful as most of us would find it to recover from such a tragedy while bearing such a charitable attitude toward the perpetrator or his family, the Amish of Nickel Mines offer an inspiring illustration of how it can be done.

So does the other lesson of forgiveness I mentioned.

Back in January of 1997, Washington found that it had not become too jaded, after years of gang-related violence, to be shocked by the abduction and murder of 12-year-old Darryl Dayan Hall. It was the seventh homicide in two years in the Benning Terrace public housing development on the southeast side of the nation's capital. The neighborhood braced itself for a violent retaliation. Hall's killers were tried and convicted, but the expected street payback never came.

Instead, soon after Hall's death, some local ex-offenders and other men who had been working with at-risk youths took to the streets. They nudged the leaders of the two rival "crews" into mediation.

The truce talks were held on neutral turf, the downtown offices of the non-profit National Center for Neighborhood Enterprise, which celebrates its 25th anniversary this month as a conservative alternative to the civil rights movement to which its founder, social activist Robert L. Woodson Sr., used to belong.

The meeting began with a prayer. The ground rules included no guns, no profanity and no name-calling. Those were easy concessions compared with the big one that the gang-bangers had to make: no retaliation. There can be no break in the cycle of violence without forgiveness.

Now, almost a decade later, the truce has worked. Until recently, at least, there has been no resumption of gang-related homicides in Benning Terrace, and the center has helped establish other "violence-free zones" in high schools and neighborhoods across the country.

"A couple of years ago, the Department of Education commissioned a study to find a common profile of high school killers," Woodson said. "They didn't find a common profile, but they did find that the predators almost always told others what they were going to do before they did it."

The key to Woodson's program are youth advisers, who usually are young men, often ex-offenders, who establish lines of communications with at-risk teens. They listen for the "buzz" that indicates violence may be in its early developing stages and take action to stop trouble before it happens.

That's one of the many lessons I have learned from Woodson's organization as I have followed his work with community groups. If the violence with which he deals was inflicted on black Americans by white bigots, we undoubtedly would see a stampede of media accompanied by Rev. Jesse Jackson, Rev. Al Sharpton and others, arriving to demand federal investigations of the "hate crimes." But white bigots don't have to kill black youths today. Black youths are doing a horribly effective job on their own.

Poor urban neighborhoods such as Benning Terrace don't usually have a lot in common with rural areas such as Nickel Mines, but they both offer a valuable lesson in how to bring peace through forgiveness. Otherwise, as we can see elsewhere in our war-torn world, the violence never ends.

----------

Clarence Page is a member of the Tribune's editorial board. E-mail: [email protected]
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 07:33 am
Touching post, Walter.
0 Replies
 
blacksmithn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 07:37 am
Nice article, Walter. And humbling. I don't know that I would have the intestinal fortitude-- or perhaps moral compass is a better term-- to respond as the Amish did. Thanks.
0 Replies
 
Tai Chi
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 08:12 am
Thanks Walter.
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2006 08:41 am
Workers raze school where Amish girls were killed

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/US/10/12/amish.school.ap/newt1.rubble.ap.jpg

NICKEL MINES, Pennsylvania (AP) -- Workers using heavy machinery rather than hand tools early Thursday demolished the one-room Amish schoolhouse where a gunman killed five girls and wounded five others.

Construction lights glared in the mist as a backhoe tore into the overhang of the school's porch around 4:45 a.m., then knocked down the bell tower and toppled the walls.

Within 15 minutes, the building was flattened. By 7:30, the debris was gone.

The schoolhouse had been boarded up since the killings 10 days earlier, with classes moved to a nearby farm. The Amish planned to leave a quiet pasture where the schoolhouse stood.

"I thought there was widespread feeling in the community that it was important to remove the building," said Herman Bontrager, a Mennonite businessman who is serving as a spokesman. "Especially for the children, but not only for the children."

The Amish are known for constructing buildings by hand, without the aid of modern technology, but for this job they relied on an outside demolition crew to bring closure to a painful chapter for their peaceful community.

A group of 20 to 30 people, many of them in traditional Amish dress, gathered nearby to watch as the schoolhouse was leveled. One Amish man shook his head when asked if he would comment on the demolition.

"It seems this is a type of closure for them," Mike Hart, a spokesman for the Bart Fire Company, said as loaders lifted debris into dump trucks to be hauled away.

"I think the Amish leaders made the right decision."

The destruction of the West Nickel Mines Amish School came a week after the funerals for the five girls killed by gunman Charles Carl Roberts IV. Roberts came heavily armed and apparently prepared for a long standoff. He held the 10 girls hostage for about an hour before shooting them and killing himself as police closed in.

The five girls wounded in the October 2 shooting are still believed to be hospitalized. The hospitals are no longer providing any information about the patients at the request of their families.

Hart, who has been coordinating activities with the Amish community and whose company will help provide security, said private contractors were handling the demolition, and the debris would be hauled to a landfill.

He has said classes were expected to resume for the school this week at a makeshift schoolhouse in a garage on an Amish farm in the Nickel Mines area.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 04:26 am
I was at the scene as the contractors tore the building down early yesterday. I was on my way to HArrisburg for a meeting and had to cross over White Oak Road to get to rt 30. About 6:45 AM, I came upon a convoy of flatbeds all loaded with the trashed building and outhouse neatly piled, lashed , and covered for the drive to the County LAnfill.

The convoy of trucks (dump and flatbeds) was heavily escorted by state police. I was stopped to allow passage of a "Wide Load" carrier that contained the wall section of the building. I knew the firemen who volunteered to act as flagmen during the entire process. I stopped and waited for the wide load to pass and was talking to one of them. He stated that the cops and the AMish were quite sensitive about any of the school building parts showing up on e-Bay.
The reason that the clandestine operation was chosen was twofold

1 As of Thursday the 12th, The media had still not given up on "wall to wall" coverage when the Amish felt that, enough was enough, and that they needed to get back to life as they knew it.

2 The area had turned into an extreme tourist site. Apparently last weekend, there were lines of cars from as far away as New England who just drove down to see the murder site.

When I came home from my meeting, I was surprised at how quickly everything was removed from the landscape. They had all traces of the building gone and the area plowed, disced and planted in seasonal ryegrass.
They will ultimately turn this small area into a 1.5 acre pasture .



Back at the landfill, the county had bulldozed a special area in their "C&D" fill area (Construction and demolition) to recieve the school. They brought up the big shredder to affect a meaningful size reduction to all the school parts. Then the shredded school was deposited into the prepared cell and promptly covered it with intermediate cover. This project went off with almost surgical precision and where one day, there was a constant reminder of a heinous crime, now there is a small pasture with a paw-paw tree along the edge.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 05:01 am
I think the Amish have a better grip on what is truly important than a lot of the more "normal" American society does...
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 06:07 am
They look at our celebration of Halloween or Christmas as examples of "The out of control world'

I dont think I could do without my cable Tv or broadband (or electric power tools), but they can.
0 Replies
 
Joeblow
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 06:16 am
snood wrote:
I think the Amish have a better grip on what is truly important than a lot of the more "normal" American society does...


In this instance especially, I agree.


Thanks for recounting your experience farmerman.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 06:51 am
djjd62 wrote:
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/US/10/12/amish.school.ap/newt1.rubble.ap.jpg


And now it looks like this:

http://i10.tinypic.com/4hw32au.jpg
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 11:13 am
That second photo is quite touching. Thanks, Walter.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 12:32 am
What will happen next?
0 Replies
 
blacksmithn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 07:10 am
Spring will come. Flowers will bloom and fields will ripen and life will go on...
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 07:36 am
Nicely put, blacksmithn
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 02:32 am
ossobuco wrote:
That's nice re focussing on now, Aidan.
Most of us do that too, to start.
I've watched OmsigDavid for many years.
So have others.
But n'mind us,
click on his profile and review posts, or don't.

For many of us, he is just another thread spoiler.


Perhaps new attention will gain communcation.

If u find that to be a problem,
then do what I do regarding unpleasant
or unacceptable posters: just scroll past and ignore the posts,
the same as u don 't watch a TV show that u don 't like.

I think that 's common sense.
David
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 03:07 am
blacksmithn wrote:
Spring will come. Flowers will bloom and fields will ripen and life will go on...


Yes. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 03:32 am
aidan wrote:
Sorry - I just thought of something else you mentioned David - the whole idea of a militia and our right to protect ourselves against our own government.

When the Bill of Rights was written - that was viable and reasonable- and a gun in every household made sense for that purpose- so that an armed force could be mustered quickly.

Yes: both the Federalists ( arguing in favor of ratifying the Constitution )
and the Anti-federalists, led by Patrick Henry, arguing against ratification,
agreed that the citizens ( acting together, organizing themselves into militia )
shud be and wud be able to overthrow the government.





Quote:

At this point in civilization and in our country's history,
what logical purpose is served by arming our citizenry against invaders -
or unreasonable force or despotic rule by our own government - should that ever happen?

Well, perhaps consideration
of the experience of the citizens of New Orleans after Katrina
may be instructive on this point.

The local police dept. ceased to exist
for a while ( a few weeks ? ) insofar as suppression of crime was
concerned, limitiing their function to rescuing victims of the weather;
911 ceased existence, insofar as crime was concerned.

Bands of criminals, looters, terrorized the area
and fired upon police who were involved in rescue efforts.
The mayor declared that all guns wud be stolen from
the citizens of New Orleans by the police.
The police chief publicly declared on TV
that indeed this wud happen,
and indeed it DID. I saw a videotape of about 8 or 10
police jumping on an old lady in her house,
robbing her of her defensive gun.

In effect, the US Constitution was revoked by the mayor in New Orleans
so that the citizens cud not defend their homes from the roaming bands of criminals
because they had been robbed by the police, of their defensive equipment.
Even after a Federal Court ordered the city
to return the guns to their owners,
the stolen guns STILL have not been returned,
as the city authorities continue to trample the Constitution,
the Supreme Law of the Land

Let us not lose sight of the fact
that police robbing and stripping the citizens' ( in their homes )
of their defensive armament,
can be a DEATH SENTENCE in the face
of the bands of armed looters who continued to pillage
neighborhoods, day after day and night after night.
If the property owners were rendered defenseless,
then the bands of roving criminals were free
to murder them, at their discretion.

Note that the police never gave up THEIR guns.

The police themselves even participated in the looting,
as shown on TV.
.






Quote:

The "militia" would be crushed like ants.

I understand what u mean,
but the original concept was that EVERYONE
was supposed to be armed to the teeth,
so that ( in theory ) there 'd be almost 300 million
civilians defending their rights, against a few
hundred thousand professional soldiers,
some of whom perhaps wud respect their oath
to support the Constitution, and go over to
their support.




Quote:

And look at the "militias" that are forming around the US. Pretty scary - and they're certainly not concerning themselves with anyone's personal rights and freedoms and/or right to individualism that is in any way counter to their own perceptions of who they think deserves to have it and what exactly it means. I think these militias are directly counter to the idea of democracy and personal rights, freedom of expression, pursuit of happiness (in the declaration of independence) individualism, etc. for everyone except a very small, select group. That's exactly what our founding fathers were fleeing in Europe when they came to this country- scary how cycles repeat themselves.

I don 't have much information about such militia.
I am not personally aware of any.
David
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 04:51 am
You know David - I was with you until your last comment. I believe you're being disingenious. I do believe that you have to be personally aware of what I'm talking about- as any American who reads the newspapers or watches the news is. Are you not aware of Timothy McVeigh and his activities? Are you unaware of all the paramilitary camps that are springing up in some of the more isolated areas of the country? I'm not saying that you're personally involved - but I don't believe that you could be unaware. You seem so well-versed and informed about all the other aspects of an armed America.

I also think that the mayor of New Orleans enacted that policy to de-arm the looters who were terrorizing the citizens- not to rob honest citizens of their ability to protect themselves. So, what I'm saying is - if people hadn't had guns in the first place - there wouldn't have been any armed looters to terrorize anyone with any more force than any other citizen was capable of. And maybe it was that imbalance of power ( a person who has a gun and wants something versus a person who doesn't have a gun and wants something) added to the general mayhem and attitude of being able to take what you wanted. I mean if you're pointing a gun at someone - they're pretty much gonna have to do what you tell them to do.

Maybe if everyone had started on more equal footing - there would have been more of a spirit of cooperation and trust that someone wasn't going to use and abuse you to get what they wanted or needed in a situation where everyone wanted or needed the same thing.

But that's all just conjecture. Sad that we'll never know. Americans are just too attached to their guns for us ever to find out.

*If this is bothering anyone because it's off topic - feel free to move it. If I knew how or who to ask - I would.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 05:13 am
aidan wrote:
David - I don't really care what color or how big the font you post in is - and you don't even have to give me a reason why you do it - because in the bigger scheme of things - what the hell difference does it make?

Yeah; that 's how I see it;
not much of a big deal.
It seems odd to me that thay get so worked up about it.



Quote:

But again, I'm a real believer in personal freedom and individualism.

We share an ideological kinship.





Quote:

It's coincidental that you're a libertarian. I posted a week or so back on a thread about the erosion of individualism in society and how peoples' lack of ability to be individuals is actually hurting our society, etc. It was really interesting - here's the link:.
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=83757&highlight=
Anyway, I didn't recognize the name of the author, so I asked and as you can see it was a professor of law who posts on this libertarian site. Was I surprised!

I 'll check the link.



Quote:

Although I do have to admit that a lot of times when I release my preconceptions about something, or read something outside of it's usual context - like if I read something by Ben Stein - but it's not in a conservative publication- I'm more accepting of the message - because I'm reading it with a more open mind and I allow myself to see that it makes sense or is more appealing when viewed outside of it's normal and labeled packaging.
(Maybe you should try that - maybe that font and color thing is "coloring" negatively the way people look at your posts- just like we allow ourselves to have our view colored negatively or positively by whatever name or avatar is attached to what might very well be a really good or stupid post- you know what I'm saying? It'd be an interesting experiment...)

Anyway - I know what you're saying about feeling protected.
As a woman, I have had several occaisions in my life, when I've felt threatened and terrified and extremely vulnerable and wished that I had had some kind of weapon at my disposal with which to protect myself.

That reminds me of the experience of David Rothenberg,
whose father tried to burn him to death, as a little boy,
in a fit of pique against the boy 's mother.
He thereafter kept a gun at his bedside,
in fear that his dad might come back to finish the job.




Quote:

One time, I actually did wake up with a strange drunk man in my bedroom. He had broken a window and was robbing my house.
When I screamed, he did not attack me, but ran out of the house.

Its a good thing that he ran in the right direction.
Most of the time thay DO, but not always.






Quote:

For weeks after that, I was afraid to go to sleep. I literally slept with a container of mace in my hand, because I had two little children (ages 4 and 1 at the time) and I was afraid that if I left it on my bedside table they would wake up when I was asleep and be curious and hurt themselves with it.

Yes; I have previously posted to other threads
( I don 't remember whether I posted this to this thread ;
if so, please forgive my redundance )
that when I was 8 years old, I was alone at home a lot,
in Arizona, and I felt ill-at-ease, in that I doubted that I cud
defend the place if I had to,
until a few weeks later, when I armed myself
with a .38 revolver. Then I had a better sense of tranquility.
My nervousness had no factual basis.
I lived in a crime-free neighborhood.





Quote:

I too, am sick of vulnerable children being preyed upon. I wish to god - it would stop.

I guess that is how life has always been,
for untold millenia; neither the young of OUR species,
nor of any other species, have ever been safe.




Quote:

But I don't think arming them or everyone in the US is the answer.

We are a tool-using species.

That is how we rose to the top of the food chain,
and how we rose to the Moon.
Guns are the tools of choice
for insuring our personal defense,
or the defense of our loved ones,
in time of emergency.

U 'll probably never need it,
but its better to have a gun and not need it,
than to need a gun and not have it; ( that can be very embarassing ).






Quote:

I think we need to change our society from the inside out

How do u propose that we do this ?

MY best suggestion
is that we BANISH violent criminal recidivists from
the North American Continent.



Quote:

so there is no need for constant, vigilant, armed protection against our fellow citizens.

As I see it,
the problem with that is:
out of almost 300 million Americans,
someone, somewhere, occasionally
is going to blow a head gasket and run amok
( tho he may have had a peaceful prior history ).

If that happens, the citizens within his reach
( be thay young or old )
better be able to handle the situation,
if thay wanna continue to enjoy life
or to have a life to enjoy.
Its a question of being able to control the situation
as well as possible.
( Remember that the predator will not begin his attack
until he has armed himself with
whatever guns, boms, fire boms, axes, knives, crashing cars,
or whatever else his destructive imagination comes up with
and he has FOREVER to put that stuff together for his misuse. )




Quote:

I realize this is getting further and further from being at all realistic or probable - or maybe even possible. And that saddens me. I don't know what the answer is - I just don't agree that it's armed protection. Maybe that's why I feel more comfortable where I'm living now...I took a walk in the woods with my l4 year old daughter tonight - to look at the moon - it was amazing - and I didn't feel a moment's threat or fear. That's how life should be for everyone...the sad thing is, there's not one place in the US that I've lived (and I've lived urban, rural, north, south, etc.) that I'd feel safe doing that. Mostly because of the violent and weapon-fueled mentality that permeates that society.

I never feel threatened.
On summer nights, I have ofen walked a few blocks
to a local doughnut shop, just to enjoy the night air around 2 A.M.

I ofen compare it to carrying a spare tire
in my trunk; I don 't live in fear of flat tires,
but it 's a good idea to be prepared, just in case.




Quote:

*I haven't tried to join mensa - I don't liketo burden myself with labels :wink: - anyway - what could they tell me about myself that I don't already know?

There are lots of fun activities,
and u can start your own by publishing it in the social calendar.
Whoever has similar interests will join u.




Quote:

I probably wouldn't make it anyway - I get the constitution and the declaration of independence mixed up - what does that tell you about my intellect-

only that if u read them both,
u 'll not make that error again
Thay r both short instruments.
( I deem them both to be very enjoyable. )





Quote:

my areas of strength are scattered and my memory retrieval is going down the tubes every year older I get - pretty typical of the population at large.

Yeah; it happens to the best of us,
but its healthy to exercise your mind, like a muscle.





Quote:

You're a little radical

I know




Quote:

- but I thought you made a lot of valid points

Thank u


Quote:

- even if I don't agree with all of them. Thanks for responding.

It is my pleasure.




Quote:

*Just out of curiousity - and if this is too personal, ignore me - did you know someone who was hurt or attacked, or even murdered as a child?

I think something like that can have a big impact on someone's thinking. I had a friend who died of menengitis when I was six years old, and to this day, everytime my kids get sick - I worry about menengitis first...just wondering.

No; not in this lifetime.
The leftists who denounce my obsession
with self defense are right.
I am very aware of this,
which is not to say that my vu is flawed.

In this forum and elsewhere,
I wish to draw attention to the problem
of ending the governmental control of guns

0 Replies
 
 

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