7
   

THE DANGER OF GUN-FREE SCHOOL ZONES

 
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 08:49 pm
i've found the answer here

i mean really, it does explain alot
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 09:06 pm
Montana wrote:
Maybe it's this picture I have in my head
with thousands of children running to school with their fully loaded guns, that makes me think you're nuts,David, but that's just me.

That is not just a picture in your head.
Around World War I,
Congress enacted the Director of Civilian Marksmanship Program,
which promoted schools having gunnery teams,
to improve accuracy and safety in handling guns.

Some of the schools that I attended
had gunnery teams. I was never accurate enuf
to be on the teams, but still,
no one was ever inconvenienced by the armed students.
There was no trouble.

I previously have posted in reference to
the ABC World News with Peter Jennings,
in the 1990s, about a school in one of the northwestern states
wherein the students MUST bring guns to school.
Apparently there had been too much trouble
with the local fauna preying upon them.

Thay were required to bring shoulder weapons,
because handguns were not sufficiently powerful
for the game involved; ( I do not remember what species
of animals had been troublesome ).
A group of several wholesome looking children aged 8 to 12
were interviewed on the subject,
with nothing rong indicated.
David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 09:14 pm
blacksmithn wrote:
It's not just you, believe me.
He damned well IS nuts.

I don 't take your hysterical invective personally.

I know that u r mad because I love freedom
and u hate it; fear it.

U can 't handle the message,
so u wish to kill the messenger, and his horse,
in displaced hostility.

David
0 Replies
 
blacksmithn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 09:17 pm
Yeah, that'd be it... Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 09:27 pm
I know I'm speechless.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 09:28 pm
OmSigDAVID wrote:
blacksmithn wrote:
It's not just you, believe me.
He damned well IS nuts.

I don 't take your hysterical invective personally.

I know that u r mad because I love freedom
and u hate it; fear it.

U can 't handle the message,
so u wish to kill the messenger, and his horse,
in displaced hostility.

David

gonna take a shotgun and disconnect my brain.
0 Replies
 
blacksmithn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 09:29 pm
Montana wrote:
I know I'm speechless.


Would that Gun-boy were. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 09:30 pm
Laughing
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 10:11 pm
blacksmithn wrote:
Montana wrote:
I know I'm speechless.


Would that Gun-boy were. Laughing

I guess the blacksmith doesn 't like the First Amendment
much better than the Second one,
proving that he really IS a true liberal.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 10:17 pm
OmSigDAVID wrote:
blacksmithn wrote:
Montana wrote:
I know I'm speechless.


Would that Gun-boy were. Laughing

I guess the blacksmith doesn 't like the First Amendment
much better than the Second one,
proving that he really IS a true liberal.

it's a given that all liberals hate all freedoms.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 10:19 pm
OmSigDAVID wrote:
blacksmithn wrote:
It's not just you, believe me.
He damned well IS nuts.

I don 't take your hysterical invective personally.

I know that u r mad because I love freedom
and u hate it; fear it.

U can 't handle the message,
so u wish to kill the messenger, and his horse,
in displaced hostility.

David


What kind of horse do you have David? What colour is it? Do you have a saddle? Did you ever ride a pony as a kid? Do you have holsters for your guns? Do you polish the bullets?

(quick folks, I'll keep him talking.... make a run for it.)
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Oct, 2006 12:10 am
Hey, demented Marlboro Man -

So, you like freedom, David? And you think carrying a gun makes you FREE? Free to do what?

The law, mr. lawyer Rolling Eyes , in the 18th C., giving the right to bear (not bare :wink: ) arms in the US was based upon allowing an armed citizenry to protect itself against a tyrannical government, which you now have.

There is more violence in the US than anywhere else, as I have proven to you by aforementioned post. Giving paranoid psychopaths (not YOU, of course) guns to 'protect' themselves only makes America a crazier place to live in, not a free place, but a place of FEAR.

You equate fear with freedom? Or freedom with fear?

Some utopia.

You and Bushie have been watching too many John Wayne shoot-em-ups. Apparently you think everything can be solved with violence. Only in Hollywood, not in real life.

And apparently, that type of thinking isn't working, or America wouldn't be #1 of 25 industrial countries to win the prize for the Most Violent Place To Live On The Planet. Yup, you need more guns alright Cool
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Oct, 2006 02:23 am
Basic facts of American life:

The one sociological variable which most strongly and absolutely correlates with every sort of urban pathology and with violent crime rates in America is degree of demoKKKrat infestation. It is precisely the places in which old style demoKKKrat machine politics still rule which are the most violent places in America.

The one place I normally ever go in which I'd definitely feel better carrying a pistol is Baltimore Maryland, one of the two or three most extreme cases of demoKKKrat infestation in the land. DemoKKKrat control over many decades has somehow or other affected the genetic makeup of the voting-block defectives who live there. What I mean by that is that nothing I ever see in DC or NY or Philly really scares me, at least in daylight, but things I see in Baltimore do.

The most messed up people I ever see in DC or NY still look like they came from this planet; the equivalent in Baltimore do not. Some of them walk like chickens, and have blank looks on their faces. IQ levels are likely below that of many monkeys, even when the humans in question are not stoned or cracked out or whatever. I would guess that if the demoKKKrat party were outlawed and banned tommorrow (which I would do in a heartbeat if I had the power to), it would take two to five generations for all of the people of Baltimore to start looking human again.

That is in keeping with what breeders told Chuck Darwin, i.e. that all of your dog breeds would revert to your ordinary universal 50-lb wild dog within five generations if returned to the wild.

The idea of guns or gun ownership causing any or all of the sort of violence you find in places like Detroit or Baltimore is ludicrous. The natives would clearly be whacking eachother with axes, knives, or baseball bats if guns did not exist.

The one legislative sort of thing you could really do which would help the situation noticably would be to end the war on drugs and both political parties are basically on the wrong side of that one, and the only glimmer of light I see is from the libertarian wing of the republican party more or less. The demoKKKrat party of course is a monolith and does not have "wings".
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Oct, 2006 02:31 am
http://www.reason.com/0211/fe.jm.gun.shtml


November 2002

Gun Control's Twisted Outcome
Restricting firearms has helped make England more crime-ridden than the U.S.
By Joyce Lee Malcolm


On a June evening two years ago, Dan Rather made many stiff British upper lips quiver by reporting that England had a crime problem and that, apart from murder, "theirs is worse than ours." The response was swift and sharp. "Have a Nice Daydream," The Mirror, a London daily, shot back, reporting: "Britain reacted with fury and disbelief last night to claims by American newsmen that crime and violence are worse here than in the US." But sandwiched between the article's battery of official denials -- "totally misleading," "a huge over-simplification," "astounding and outrageous" -- and a compilation of lurid crimes from "the wild west culture on the other side of the Atlantic where every other car is carrying a gun," The Mirror conceded that the CBS anchorman was correct. Except for murder and rape, it admitted, "Britain has overtaken the US for all major crimes."

In the two years since Dan Rather was so roundly rebuked, violence in England has gotten markedly worse. Over the course of a few days in the summer of 2001, gun-toting men burst into an English court and freed two defendants; a shooting outside a London nightclub left five women and three men wounded; and two men were machine-gunned to death in a residential neighborhood of north London. And on New Year's Day this year a 19-year-old girl walking on a main street in east London was shot in the head by a thief who wanted her mobile phone. London police are now looking to New York City police for advice.

None of this was supposed to happen in the country whose stringent gun laws and 1997 ban on handguns have been hailed as the "gold standard" of gun control. For the better part of a century, British governments have pursued a strategy for domestic safety that a 1992 Economist article characterized as requiring "a restraint on personal liberty that seems, in most civilised countries, essential to the happiness of others," a policy the magazine found at odds with "America's Vigilante Values." The safety of English people has been staked on the thesis that fewer private guns means less crime. The government believes that any weapons in the hands of men and women, however law-abiding, pose a danger, and that disarming them lessens the chance that criminals will get or use weapons.

The results -- the toughest firearm restrictions of any democracy -- are credited by the world's gun control advocates with producing a low rate of violent crime. U.S. Supreme Court Justice Lewis Powell reflected this conventional wisdom when, in a 1988 speech to the American Bar Association, he attributed England's low rates of violent crime to the fact that "private ownership of guns is strictly controlled."

In reality, the English approach has not re-duced violent crime. Instead it has left law-abiding citizens at the mercy of criminals who are confident that their victims have neither the means nor the legal right to resist them. Imitating this model would be a public safety disaster for the United States.

The illusion that the English government had protected its citizens by disarming them seemed credible because few realized the country had an astonishingly low level of armed crime even before guns were restricted. A government study for the years 1890-92, for example, found only three handgun homicides, an average of one a year, in a population of 30 million. In 1904 there were only four armed robberies in London, then the largest city in the world. A hundred years and many gun laws later, the BBC reported that England's firearms restrictions "seem to have had little impact in the criminal underworld." Guns are virtually outlawed, and, as the old slogan predicted, only outlaws have guns. Worse, they are increasingly ready to use them.

Nearly five centuries of growing civility ended in 1954. Violent crime has been climbing ever since. Last December, London's Evening Standard reported that armed crime, with banned handguns the weapon of choice, was "rocketing." In the two years following the 1997 handgun ban, the use of handguns in crime rose by 40 percent, and the upward trend has continued. From April to November 2001, the number of people robbed at gunpoint in London rose 53 percent.

Gun crime is just part of an increasingly lawless environment. From 1991 to 1995, crimes against the person in England's inner cities increased 91 percent. And in the four years from 1997 to 2001, the rate of violent crime more than doubled. Your chances of being mugged in London are now six times greater than in New York. England's rates of assault, robbery, and burglary are far higher than America's, and 53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the U.S., where burglars admit to fearing armed homeowners more than the police. In a United Nations study of crime in 18 developed nations published in July, England and Wales led the Western world's crime league, with nearly 55 crimes per 100 people.

This sea change in English crime followed a sea change in government policies. Gun regulations have been part of a more general disarmament based on the proposition that people don't need to protect themselves because society will protect them. It also will protect their neighbors: Police advise those who witness a crime to "walk on by" and let the professionals handle it.

This is a reversal of centuries of common law that not only permitted but expected individuals to defend themselves, their families, and their neighbors when other help was not available. It was a legal tradition passed on to Americans. Personal security was ranked first among an individual's rights by William Blackstone, the great 18th-century exponent of the common law. It was a right, he argued, that no government could take away, since no government could protect the individual in his moment of need. A century later Blackstone's illustrious successor, A.V. Dicey, cautioned, "discourage self-help and loyal subjects become the slaves of ruffians."

But modern English governments have put public order ahead of the individual's right to personal safety. First the government clamped down on private possession of guns; then it forbade people to carry any article that might be used for self-defense; finally, the vigor of that self-defense was to be judged by what, in hindsight, seemed "reasonable in the circumstances."

The 1920 Firearms Act was the first serious British restriction on guns. Although crime was low in England in 1920, the government feared massive labor disruption and a Bolshevik revolution. In the circumstances, permitting the people to remain armed must have seemed an unnecessary risk. And so the new policy of disarming the public began. The Firearms Act required a would-be gun owner to obtain a certificate from the local chief of police, who was charged with determining whether the applicant had a good reason for possessing a weapon and was fit to do so. All very sensible. Parliament was assured that the intention was to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals and other dangerous persons. Yet from the start the law's enforcement was far more restrictive, and Home Office instructions to police -- classified until 1989 -- periodically narrowed the criteria.

At first police were instructed that it would be a good reason to have a revolver if a person "lives in a solitary house, where protection against thieves and burglars is essential, or has been exposed to definite threats to life on account of his performance of some public duty." By 1937 police were to discourage applications to possess firearms for house or personal protection. In 1964 they were told "it should hardly ever be necessary to anyone to possess a firearm for the protection of his house or person" and that "this principle should hold good even in the case of banks and firms who desire to protect valuables or large quantities of money."

In 1969 police were informed "it should never be necessary for anyone to possess a firearm for the protection of his house or person." These changes were made without public knowledge or debate. Their enforcement has consumed hundreds of thousands of police hours. Finally, in 1997 handguns were banned. Proposed exemptions for handicapped shooters and the British Olympic team were rejected.

Even more sweeping was the 1953 Prevention of Crime Act, which made it illegal to carry in a public place any article "made, adapted, or intended" for an offensive purpose "without lawful authority or excuse." Carrying something to protect yourself was branded antisocial. Any item carried for possible defense automatically became an offensive weapon. Police were given extensive power to stop and search everyone. Individuals found with offensive items were guilty until proven innocent.

During the debate over the Prevention of Crime Act in the House of Commons, a member from Northern Ireland told his colleagues of a woman employed by Parliament who had to cross a lonely heath on her route home and had armed herself with a knitting needle. A month earlier, she had driven off a youth who tried to snatch her handbag by jabbing him "on a tender part of his body." Was it to be an offense to carry a knitting needle? The attorney general assured the M.P. that the woman might be found to have a reasonable excuse but added that the public should be discouraged "from going about with offensive weapons in their pockets; it is the duty of society to protect them."

Another M.P. pointed out that while "society ought to undertake the defense of its members, nevertheless one has to remember that there are many places where society cannot get, or cannot get there in time. On those occasions a man has to defend himself and those whom he is escorting. It is not very much consolation that society will come forward a great deal later, pick up the bits, and punish the violent offender."

In the House of Lords, Lord Saltoun argued: "The object of a weapon was to assist weakness to cope with strength and it is this ability that the bill was framed to destroy. I do not think any government has the right, though they may very well have the power, to deprive people for whom they are responsible of the right to defend themselves." But he added: "Unless there is not only a right but also a fundamental willingness amongst the people to defend themselves, no police force, however large, can do it."

That willingness was further undermined by a broad revision of criminal law in 1967 that altered the legal standard for self-defense. Now everything turns on what seems to be "reasonable" force against an assailant, considered after the fact. As Glanville Williams notes in his Textbook of Criminal Law, that requirement is "now stated in such mitigated terms as to cast doubt on whether it [self-defense] still forms part of the law."

The original common law standard was similar to what still prevails in the U.S. Americans are free to carry articles for their protection, and in 33 states law-abiding citizens may carry concealed guns. Americans may defend themselves with deadly force if they believe that an attacker is about to kill or seriously injure them, or to prevent a violent crime. Our courts are mindful that, as Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes observed, "detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an upraised knife."

But English courts have interpreted the 1953 act strictly and zealously. Among articles found illegally carried with offensive intentions are a sandbag, a pickaxe handle, a stone, and a drum of pepper. "Any article is capable of being an offensive weapon," concede the authors of Smith and Hogan Criminal Law, a popular legal text, although they add that if the article is unlikely to cause an injury the onus of proving intent to do so would be "very heavy."

The 1967 act has not been helpful to those obliged to defend themselves either. Granville Williams points out: "For some reason that is not clear, the courts occasionally seem to regard the scandal of the killing of a robber as of greater moment than the safety of the robber's victim in respect of his person and property."

A sampling of cases illustrates the impact of these measures:

• In 1973 a young man running on a road at night was stopped by the police and found to be carrying a length of steel, a cycle chain, and a metal clock weight. He explained that a gang of youths had been after him. At his hearing it was found he had been threatened and had previously notified the police. The justices agreed he had a valid reason to carry the weapons. Indeed, 16 days later he was attacked and beaten so badly he was hospitalized. But the prosecutor appealed the ruling, and the appellate judges insisted that carrying a weapon must be related to an imminent and immediate threat. They sent the case back to the lower court with directions to convict.

• In 1987 two men assaulted Eric Butler, a 56-year-old British Petroleum executive, in a London subway car, trying to strangle him and smashing his head against the door. No one came to his aid. He later testified, "My air supply was being cut off, my eyes became blurred, and I feared for my life." In desperation he unsheathed an ornamental sword blade in his walking stick and slashed at one of his attackers, stabbing the man in the stomach. The assailants were charged with wounding. Butler was tried and convicted of carrying an offensive weapon.

• In 1994 an English homeowner, armed with a toy gun, managed to detain two burglars who had broken into his house while he called the police. When the officers arrived, they arrested the homeowner for using an imitation gun to threaten or intimidate. In a similar incident the following year, when an elderly woman fired a toy cap pistol to drive off a group of youths who were threatening her, she was arrested for putting someone in fear. Now the police are pressing Parliament to make imitation guns illegal.

• In 1999 Tony Martin, a 55-year-old Norfolk farmer living alone in a shabby farmhouse, awakened to the sound of breaking glass as two burglars, both with long criminal records, burst into his home. He had been robbed six times before, and his village, like 70 percent of rural English communities, had no police presence. He sneaked downstairs with a shotgun and shot at the intruders. Martin received life in prison for killing one burglar, 10 years for wounding the second, and a year for having an unregistered shotgun. The wounded burglar, having served 18 months of a three-year sentence, is now free and has been granted £5,000 of legal assistance to sue Martin.

The failure of English policy to produce a safer society is clear, but what of British jibes about "America's vigilante values" and our much higher murder rate?

Historically, America has had a high homicide rate and England a low one. In a comparison of New York and London over a 200-year period, during most of which both populations had unrestricted access to firearms, historian Eric Monkkonen found New York's homicide rate consistently about five times London's. Monkkonen pointed out that even without guns, "the United States would still be out of step, just as it has been for two hundred years."

Legal historian Richard Maxwell Brown has argued that Americans have more homicides because English law insists an individual should retreat when attacked, whereas Americans believe they have the right to stand their ground and kill in self-defense. Americans do have more latitude to protect themselves, in keeping with traditional common law standards, but that would have had less significance before England's more restrictive policy was established in 1967.

The murder rates of the U.S. and U.K. are also affected by differences in the way each counts homicides. The FBI asks police to list every homicide as murder, even if the case isn't subsequently prosecuted or proceeds on a lesser charge, making the U.S. numbers as high as possible. By contrast, the English police "massage down" the homicide statistics, tracking each case through the courts and removing it if it is reduced to a lesser charge or determined to be an accident or self-defense, making the English numbers as low as possible.

The London-based Office of Health Economics, after a careful international study, found that while "one reason often given for the high numbers of murders and manslaughters in the United States is the easy availability of firearms...the strong correlation with racial and socio-economic variables suggests that the underlying determinants of the homicide rate are related to particular cultural factors."

Cultural differences and more-permissive legal standards notwithstanding, the English rate of violent crime has been soaring since 1991. Over the same period, America's has been falling dramatically. In 1999 The Boston Globe reported that the American murder rate, which had fluctuated by about 20 percent between 1974 and 1991, was "in startling free-fall." We have had nine consecutive years of sharply declining violent crime. As a result the English and American murder rates are converging. In 1981 the American rate was 8.7 times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and the latest study puts it at 3.5 times.

Preliminary figures for the U.S. this year show an increase, although of less than 1 percent, in the overall number of violent crimes, with homicide increases in certain cities, which criminologists attribute to gang violence, the poor economy, and the release from prison of many offenders. Yet Americans still enjoy a substantially lower rate of violent crime than England, without the "restraint on personal liberty" English governments have seen as necessary. Rather than permit individuals more scope to defend themselves, Prime Minister Tony Blair's government plans to combat crime by extending those "restraints on personal liberty": removing the prohibition against double jeopardy so people can be tried twice for the same crime, making hearsay evidence admissible in court, and letting jurors know of a suspect's previous crimes.

This is a cautionary tale. America's founders, like their English forebears, regarded personal security as first of the three primary rights of mankind. That was the main reason for including a right for individuals to be armed in the U.S. Constitution. Not everyone needs to avail himself or herself of that right. It is a dangerous right. But leaving personal protection to the police is also dangerous.

The English government has effectively abolished the right of Englishmen, confirmed in their 1689 Bill of Rights, to "have arms for their defence," insisting upon a monopoly of force it can succeed in imposing only on law-abiding citizens. It has come perilously close to depriving its people of the ability to protect themselves at all, and the result is a more, not less, dangerous society. Despite the English tendency to decry America's "vigilante values," English policy makers would do well to consider a return to these crucial common law values, which stood them so well in the past.

Joyce Lee Malcolm, a professor of history at Bentley College and a senior adviser to the MIT Security Studies Program, is the author of Guns and Violence: The English Experience, published in May by Harvard University Press.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Oct, 2006 07:38 am
pachelbel wrote:
Hey, demented Marlboro Man -

????



Quote:

So, you like freedom, David?

Yes; I 'm heavily into that.
I always have been.
Without that, life wud not be worth living.





Quote:

And you think carrying a gun makes you FREE? Free to do what?

Well, I have been referring to the
occasional need for self defense from
the depredations of criminals or of animals,
depending on the circumstances.
Personal armament is more a matter
of safety than of freedom,
tho one has the freedom to arm oneself.

Originally, the Founders of the US Constitution,
the Supreme Law of the Land in America,
went out of their way to defend the right to personal armament
because:
1 ) There were NO police anywhere in the USA,
nor in England, until the next century,
and everyone needed personal defenses
from common criminals and from animals,
but also

2 ) Thay knew that history ( and in their case: CURRENT EVENTS )
has proven that armament of the citizenry
is necessary to keep government in line,
and might become necessary TO REMOVE
unsatisfactory government, as thay had just finished DOING, and

3 ) The Constitution had been rejected in Virginia
( America 's leading state )
until the Federalists agreed to add a bill of rights,
including that the control of guns be put beyond the reach
of government, as a condition of the existence of government.

A well armed citizenry
( as distinct from an unarmed, docile,
citizenry that depends upon society, thru its henchman: government,
for its security ), promotes a spirit of RUGGED INDIVIDUALISM,
instead of collectivism and meek submission to government,
like living under an infantile monarchy of Daddy n Mommy
being King and Queen, with unlimited jurisdiction,
from the cradle to the grave, of every citizen.





Quote:

The law, mr. lawyer Rolling Eyes , in the 18th C., giving the right to bear (not bare :wink: ) arms in the US
was based upon allowing an armed citizenry to protect itself against a tyrannical government, which you now have.

The citizens of America ( or of anywhere ) already HAD
the NATURAL RIGHT to defend themselves; ( this was undisputed ),
and had the historical right and duty to do so,
under English history, from time immemorial,
and under the English Bill of Rights of 1689 ( if thay were Protestants ),
which has been perpetuated in America in the 9th Amendment
of our Constitution.

In US v. CRUIKSHANK 92 US 542 (1875) the US Supreme Court
held that the rights of the 1st and 2nd Amendments long antedated
the Constitution, such that when created,
the US government found them in being.

Accordingly, these rights are older than the Constitution,
which neither created nor granted them to the citizenry,
any more than the Constitution created the moon nor granted the stars.


I don 't believe that we now have a tyrannical government,
but, sadly, I believe that a supertyranny, a PERMANENT supertyranny,
the like of which the world has never seen will fall upon the entire world,
not within my lifetime, but probably before the turn of the next century.
This will consist of a one world government,
which will inevitably degenerate into a collectivist despotism,
enforced by ubiquitous microsurveillance,
including, but not limited to, observation from above.

I fear that we are the ancestors of the Borg
and that there is nothing that we can do about it.



Quote:

There is more violence in the US than anywhere else,
as I have proven to you by aforementioned post.

I do not accept that proposition.
I did not mean to be rude
in failing to respond to your post.
I simply have not yet gotten around to it.
However,
even if your allegations WERE true
about violence in America,
the NATURAL RIGHT and the CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT
of each citizen and of every citizen,
to freedom of self defense and to free access
to the emergency equipment thereof, remain intact.






Quote:

Giving paranoid psychopaths (not YOU, of course)
guns to 'protect' themselves

I do not advocate
" Giving " guns, nor giving anything else,
to psychopaths; however, some of them
( in common with people in sound mental health )
will arm themselves either for self defense,
or perhaps, being crazy, for malicious reasons.

Thay can make their own guns
( as the kids in my neighborhood did, in my childhood,
even tho we already HAD commericially made guns ) or
if too lazy or too clumsy to make them personally,
thay can resort to blackmarket gunsmiths,
the same as thay get their marijuana or heroin
from underground sources.





Quote:

only makes America a crazier place to live in,
not a free place, but a place of FEAR.

I was going to respond, in good faith,
that there is no discernible fear here; but,
then I remembered that there ARE some hoplophobes
( folks with unnatural fear of weapons,
e.g., my aunt 's husband, who was in terror
of his wife, when she made rhetorical points,
by manually gesturing, while holding a kitchen knife,
when preparing dinner ) in America.

For instance,
my former law partner
had a case defending a police officer
from litigation arising from a by-stander having become
incontinent, when the officer found it necessary
to subdue a disorderly person, by wrestling him down.
In preparation therefor,
he gave his pistol to his partner.
When it was withdrawn from its holster,
the plaintiff saw it, resulting in his incontinence.

However, the rights of American citizens to defend themselves
from violent depredation are not affected by the emotions
of other people.





Quote:

You equate fear with freedom? Or freedom with fear?

When I was 8 years old,
I had some fear of not being able
to defend my home, if that ever became necessary.
This was not at all likely,
in that I lived in a neighborhood
wherein I never knew any crime to exist,
nor did I ever see the police have occasion to arrive,
in the 5 years and one day that I lived there,
yet I felt ill-at-ease, until I armed myself
with a .38 revolver; then, I felt no further fear.

In answer to your question:
I do not equate fear with freedom.

I am cognizant of my Natural, moral, and Constitutional Right
to arm myself, simply because I choose to do it,
regardless of anyone 's emotions.





Quote:

Some utopia.

That book was based upon the concept
of a collectivistic society.
THAT is antithetical to the philosophical basis
of America, which is INDIVIDUALISTIC,
and based upon the rights of the INDIVIDUAL.
We don 't want America to be a Utopia.



Quote:

You and Bushie have been watching too many John Wayne shoot-em-ups.
Apparently you think everything can be solved with violence.
Only in Hollywood, not in real life.

Not " everything " as u put it; let 's not exagerate,
but there are SOME things which can be and need to be
solved with violence, such as defending oneself
from a robbery, or a violent attack from a man,
or an animal.




Quote:

And apparently, that type of thinking isn't working,
or America wouldn't be #1 of 25 industrial countries to win the prize
for the Most Violent Place To Live On The Planet.
Yup, you need more guns alright Cool

As set forth hereinabove,
I do not accept your premise.

In any event,
I have no intention of relinquishing my right
to self defense, and I encourage all of my fellow citizens
to prepare themselves to successfully address all
foreseeable emergencies, by acquiring the necessary equipment,
and by becoming familiar with the competent use thereof.


In the past, u have been distinctly less polite
and more franticly hostile than u have been in this post.

Thank u for your civility.

David
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Oct, 2006 07:42 am
For anybody who missed it, this is "English Justice" in today's world:

Quote:


• In 1999 Tony Martin, a 55-year-old Norfolk farmer living alone in a shabby farmhouse, awakened to the sound of breaking glass as two burglars, both with long criminal records, burst into his home. He had been robbed six times before, and his village, like 70 percent of rural English communities, had no police presence. He sneaked downstairs with a shotgun and shot at the intruders. Martin received life in prison for killing one burglar, 10 years for wounding the second, and a year for having an unregistered shotgun. The wounded burglar, having served 18 months of a three-year sentence, is now free and has been granted £5,000 of legal assistance to sue Martin.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Oct, 2006 07:47 am
gungasnake wrote:
For anybody who missed it, this is "English Justice" in today's world:

Quote:


• In 1999 Tony Martin, a 55-year-old Norfolk farmer living alone in a shabby farmhouse, awakened to the sound of breaking glass as two burglars, both with long criminal records, burst into his home. He had been robbed six times before, and his village, like 70 percent of rural English communities, had no police presence. He sneaked downstairs with a shotgun and shot at the intruders. Martin received life in prison for killing one burglar, 10 years for wounding the second, and a year for having an unregistered shotgun. The wounded burglar, having served 18 months of a three-year sentence, is now free and has been granted £5,000 of legal assistance to sue Martin.

Yes.
Thank u for that.
The proponents of the victim disarmament philosophy
wud bring that state of affairs HERE,
if thay cud and WILL if thay CAN.
David
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Oct, 2006 08:02 am
Well, that is an example of absurdity. There's no way that guy should have gotten any jail time for defending his own home against intruders. That's a little too out there for me. And the burglars should have been put away for a number of years as they are recividists, and given no opportunity to sue.

That's really wrong.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Oct, 2006 08:16 am
As I've read the story, one of the two burglars was going after Martin with a tire iron or something like that. This was a famous case in England and whatever passes for a supreme court in England cannot claim ignorance of the case. Refusing to be a victim is now a major crime in England and I would not want to set foot in the place until that is changed. I'd feel safer in most African countries.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Oct, 2006 08:25 am
Here's another way to look at this civilian disarmament program.

The British instituted this stupid bullshit after WW I and then, when WW II broke out, they realized that the British army by itself would have no shot at stopping a massed invasion and that the people had nothing better than cricket bats to try to help out with. As Santino Corleone put it in The Godfather, they have been standing there "with just their dicks in their hands".

And so, the word went out, and Americans were asked to donate every spare firearm to the cause and even expensive hunting rifles went over to England on ships, in huge numbers, and the catastrophic consequence of the stupid law was averted.

And then, more recently, the nazi threat forgotten, the British have gone back to the same stupid bullshit laws.

How stupid can you be? What if AlQuaeda secretely arms the hordes of slammites now living in England and they break bad? There's a couple million of them and they're already living in England, and will have no need to get across the channel. What would a generation of limeys conditioned to be victims do about it?
0 Replies
 
 

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